xjwsforChrist

Seriously?!

You think that's what it means? Oh dear!

Go back and read through to the end of the chapter. Even more, go back and read the whole Bible again. Compare translations in order to get the full meaning. If you don't trust the translators, learn Hebrew and New Testament Greek, which will give you more knowledge than Russell and Rutherford ever had.

15. As it is, to this day, whenever Moses is read, their hearts are covered with a veil,

16. and this veil will not be taken away until they turn to the Lord.

17. Now this Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of The Lord is, there is freedom.

18. And all of us, with our unveiled faces like mirrors reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the image that we reflect in brighter and brighter glory; this is the working of The Lord who is the Spirit.

Saint Paul uses the word Kurios. Which we translate as meaning Lord. He uses it for God. He is not saying that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same. The Lord who is the Spirit. As distinguished from The Lord who is the Son, or the Father.

This page might be helpful.

http://lhim.org/audio/Lord_in_NT/Introd ... 20Lord.pdf

From that, for the sake of those who don't know, it is easily seen that the word Kurios (which in some forms becomes Kyrie) is used variously for Yahweh, whom the JW's call Jehovah, and whom Jesus calls the Father, and also by the disciples to mean Jesus himself as Lord and Master. That being so, and in the context of everything that Jesus said of himself in the Gospels, and the Father, and the Holy Spirit, and all that Saint Paul has written and other writers in the New Testament, it can easily be seen that there is but one God, not two, with another bad god on the side, according the the JW's, in the form of Satan, whom someone here has described in the last couple of days as a son of God alongside Jesus, a son who went astray. I mean, really? Really? !!!!!!!

Thus, we pray "Kyrie Eleison". "Lord, have mercy".

One God. Three Persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Blessed Trinity. If you think that passage means that Jesus is the Spirit, then you have a problem. Why would there be phrases like the Spirit of The Lord, I.e. the Spirit of God? In other words, the third Person in the Trinity, the Triune God. One God in Three Persons. Not the three-faced god lampooned in the JW literature.

That is why Christians everywhere live their lives and pray to God in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And, knowing their faults, humbly ask God for mercy. Trusting in him, as revealed by Jesus, all in the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. Three Persons. One God. Pretty simple.

As Jesus illustrated when he placed a little child before the disciples and said they need to become like the child. He told us that when he had ascended into Heaven the Father would send the Holy Spirit, because the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son. The Spirit is Love. The Spirit is not Jesus, though Jesus too reveals love and is love, as is the Father.

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. One God. Three Persons. If you can't get it, don't let it worry you. "Only believe".

Now, Loz, while we're about it, where are you on Shelby's latest doctrine, that Death is a person? Do you think that too?

I can't help but see the cloaked figure of Death on his motorbike on the front of one of the Discworld books!

http://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/

Sometimes its confusing when you compare things said in the bible. You all were quoting verses where we should not be part of this world and not love the world and then there is John 3:16 - New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


I do understand the difference but it can be confusing, just saying lol

God did so love the world - even though the world made itself His enemy - that He gave his only Son, that whoever believed in that Son (out of the world) would not die, but have everlasting life.

Not everyone does put faith in that Son.

Love friend AND foe. As Christ taught and did, so does His Father. That is why Christ said to be perfect (in love) as His Father is perfect.

I hope that makes that a bit clearer, Zoe : )

Peace,
tammy

Char, if you read all of Paul's letters and such... he is ALWAYS speaking about Christ. When he says 'Lord', Paul is speaking about Christ.

He is still speaking about Christ when he says Spirit.

Because he is speaking about the Lord. When Paul says Lord, he is speaking about Christ.

The Lord is the Spirit.


"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into HIS likeness with ever-increasing glory, which coms from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


So perhaps you should re-read... or better yet... ask Christ to show YOU, and to read that verse to YOU. So that you can see, that the Lord Paul speaks of is Christ.


Peace,
tammy

While I agree that Christ is the Holy Spirit, Paul does NOT always mean Christ when He says Lord:
14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,

“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
17 “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.
“And do not touch what is unclean;
And I will welcome you.
18 “And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

I think the worse thing we can do is to separate that which CAN NOT be separate.

Father/Son/Spirit

You can NOT have one without the others.

He might not, Paul... true, I should not have used the word 'always'. But he is speaking of Christ when he is speaking of the Lord in that instance.

Peace,
tammy

It is important to understand Paul, he did not see Father and Son as separate, but as ONE.
That is why he says, interchangeably:
Grace of God, Grace of Christ
Gospel of Christ, Gospel of God
Etc..

If you are saying... one in spirit... as Christ also says Himself (the father and I are one)... but not one being... then I agree with you, Paul.

Peace,
tammy

Yes, I agree that Paul viewed Christ as The Spirit that fill Us, that we are ONE with, that is in Us, BUT He also viewed God as that spirit too.
He also viewed them "separately":
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

According to Paul's views, Father, Son and HS were ONE ( same nature and interchanging roles) BUT separate.
HOW separate, we are not able to dis concern from Paul's writings.

One spirit Yes BUT why NOT one being?
One spiritual being, a perfect other-centered being?
Why not? is it impossible for God to be that?

I'm not sure that it matters if it is impossible for God to be that, does it? That is not a reason to believe something, is it?

I realize that is not your reason for believing so, Paul... I just don't know how to answer your question to me on that matter in any other way. Because I don't have a reason to believe that they are the same being.

God is love... His love is no less if out of that love, he brought forth LIFE (His Son).

It bothers me that there are those who are teaching that God's love is somehow less, otherwise. This is wrong.

He IS love. His love cannot be... less, or lacking. From His love... comes Life... because of how great He (love) IS.

Before a mother (and/or a father) has a child... the love in them can be what drives a mother (and/or father) to HAVE that child. From that love, comes life.


Hope that was not confusing.


Peace,
tammy

Here is how I understands the "other-centerdness" of the Trinity doctrine:
God is Love, God being God is the highest form of Love and that is love that is centered OUTWARD not inward ( selfish love).
For God to be the highest possible expression of love ( which He is since He is God), then He must be and must have always been "other-centered love" and on who is that love focused?
The Son and the HS and they return that Love.
If God is NOT a Triune being then He is not a being that is other-centered but self-centered and that means His love/expression of love is self-centered and as such, inferior to other-centered love.
The Father begot the Son as an expression of love that was centered OUTSIDE of Himself and the Son was begotten of SPIRIT (God's spirit) and as such The Son IS THE Spirit, just as He is God ( Nature).

In short, if God was "alone" as The Father then His love was self-centered and thus inferior to other-centered Love and IF God begot The Son to "fill that need/void" then He was in NEED and If He was in NEED He was NOT perfect, hence NOT God.

I would like to respond, if I may, dear P (mornin' and peace to you, luv!), as some things here are... well, a bit confusing to me, if you will permit me to say so:

And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

Paul did not call the MOST HOLY ONE of Israel "the Lord Almighty" here, dear one. He was quoting from the scriptures. THERE, the language is NOT "the Lord Almighty," but "JaHVeH Almighty." Unfortunately, when Bible translators transferred Paul's QUOTE... they also transferred the mistranslation. I say "mis"... because JAH's name was there, at first, until certain men "decided" it was too sacred to utter and took it out, replacing it with "Lord" (Adonai).

So if the TRUTH be told, what Paul WROTE, was:

And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says JAHVEH Almighty.

I implore you to go back and look at the verse Paul was quoting. HE not only wouldn't have had a problem with JAH's name, simply because our dear Lord made that name KNOWN ("I have made your name KNOWN to the men you have given me out of the world")... but would have quoted the verse verbatim. Don't let the false stylus of the secretaries/copyists fool you, dear one.

Also, I could be wrong, but it seems to ME that the following is a contradiction:



Which is TRUE... and I don't see anyone separating these but rather, TRYING to explain that there are only TWO... which TWO... SHARE the SAME spirit - HOLY spirit. TWO... in one... as Christ said on SO many occasions... by means OF that ONE spirit... which they SHARE - God's BLOOD, BREATH, and SEED:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God and was god." John 1:1

"The Father and I are one."

"I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me."

"If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." John 14:23

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body indeed is dead, because of sin; but the spirit liveth, because of justification. And if the Spirit of him that raised up [Jesus] from the dead, dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:9-11

And that it is by means of this same spirit (God's blood, breath, and seed) that WE can be/are IN UNION with them BOTH... and thus SONS (because, isn't it blood, breath, and seed that MAKE one a [true] son?).

But you also state, which seems to be a contradiction:



Which we do, as well! We make the DISTINCTION that we do... for the same reason that Israel was to make it between Joseph and Pharaoh: PHARAOH lifted Joseph up, not Joseph himself. Yet, all were to bow down... BY PHARAOH'S decree... BEFORE Joseph. The same is with Christ, though, yes? That we are to kiss HIM, lest God be angry? Yet, just like Joseph as to Pharaoh... Christ... raises up the Father ("Why do you call ME good? No one is good EXCEPT God!" and "It is to God ALONE that you must worship!").

He wasn't saying HE was God (since we are to worship him!). He was HUMBLING himself... UNDER God... and so giving GOD... ALL THE GLORY! In exchange, God gave it all to HIM. But... there is no THIRD person involved. There is God's SPIRIT... which He GAVE to His Son... and which that Son gives... to US:

"And on the last, and great day of the festivity, [Jesus] stood and cried, saying: If any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink. He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Now this he said of the Spirit which they should receive, who believed in him: for as yet the Spirit was not given, because [Jesus] was not yet glorified." John 7:37-39

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye holy spirit." John 20:22

"And JaHVeH God formed the man out of the earth: and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The SPIRIT blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:6-8

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and [c]they [d]rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." Acts 2:1-4


What my Lord explained to Nicodemus is that JAH's SPIRIT... in the form of BREATH... occurs like a wind! No one can see where it comes FROM... to where it is GOING (upon WHOM). But it makes NOISE (as blowing DOES!). So, when those folks were in that upper room at Pentecost, they HEARD that spirit... ENTER the room... and then SAW the evidence of it... by means of tiny "shekinah" lights above the heads of those into whom that spirit... JAH's spirit!... had entered. And THEN... that spirit... JAH's holy spirit... allowed them to speak IN OTHER LANGUAGES. They could SPEAK in such languages... because NOW... by means of having JAH's spirit... which spirit they RECEIVED... FROM CHRIST (just as the Apostles had received previously)... language was no longer a barrier! Because does not JAH (and Christ) know ALL languages?? Genesis 11:7; Acts 2:8

That spirit is ALSO blood:

"I will POUR OUT some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh..." Acts 2:17; Joel 2:28, 29

"Nearly ALL things are cleansed... WITH BLOOD, according to the Law, and unless BLOOD IS POURED OUT... NO forgiveness of sins takes place." Hebrews 9:22

That "blood"... God's holy spirit... is what CLEANSES us FROM our sins, dear one. It is the "WATER" that bathes us so as to MAKE us CLEAN. It is called "water"... because we have to DRINK it... and because it flows FROM Christ as a "river"... and bubbles up IN us to impart everlasting life! John 4:13, 14; John 7:37-39; Revelation 22:1, 17. But if we don't RECEIVE it, such "blood"... HOW are we CLEANSED?

And that "seed"... God's holy spirit... is that BEGETS us as sons (OF the MOST High God). We RECEIVE that begetting, God's seed... FROM Christ, His Son. Which is why Christ is CALLED "Eternal Father." HE begets us by means of the spirit of God given HIM. And so, just as Christ is called a "son" of Abraham... yet, he is the son of Mary... we, too, are called sons of God... yet, Christ is our "father."

Thus, so as to CEMENT and ASSURE our sonship... we receive THREE different witnesses: God's BREATH... His BLOOD... and His SEED. WHY three? So that NO ONE... in heaven OR on earth... will be able, once the New Jerusalem is FULLY established... to DISPUTE that sonship... and the INHERITANCE that comes WITH it.

THAT was the problem with Israel, once they mingled with the nations: TRUE sonship could no longer be established/PROVEN! It was only ASSUMED... due to the lineage of the mother. But some mothers (OR fathers)... WEREN'T Israel, but only perhaps someone who JOINED to Israel. This is why Christ's lineage was SO important: so that no one could use a LACK of lineage to deny who he truly WAS.

You dear, dear people. I can't convince you that there are only two, JAH and His Son, Christ... but joined in one SPIRIT. I can't. I cannot give you eyes... nor can I give you ears. You must go to the one who sells eyesalve for that, and I am not he. I can only tell you that he does exist, is alive, does speak... and is accessible to any who wish to go to him... as long as they do so in faith... which faith can grant one access to hear... and see... far, far more than just what exists in THIS realm... and so is apparently to the eyes of this world. I cannot help you any further than I have... and that is just to the Door. It is up to YOU to knock on it... and ask entry of the Doorkeeper.

As for me and my household, we will continue to follow that One, the Lamb of God... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... who is the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit... and my Lord. You and your household must decide for yourselves.

I wish you ALL peace... and, if you TRULY wish them... ears to hear when that Spirit, Christ... and his Bride... say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water".... FREE!"

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

Char says...

all that Saint Paul has written and other writers in the New Testament, it can easily be seen that there is but one God, not two, with another bad god on the side, according the the JW's, in the form of Satan, whom someone here has described in the last couple of days as a son of God alongside Jesus, a son who went astray. I mean, really? Really? !!!!!!

Ezekiel 28: 13-17 describes the adversary and his glory prior to his fall!
He was one of two cherubs described as the ones covering the ark of the covenant. He fell, Michael remained faithful.

2 Corinthians 4:4. Satan is the god of this system of things.

This is not JW teaching. It is scriptural teaching. If the WTBS teaches or understands some of it also....OH WELL!! They do have " some things right you know."

Just a couple more verses
Love Justmom

Satan is a false God.
He is no more GOD then any of the other fallen ones that passed themselves off to be.