xjwsforChrist

SEPTEMBER 16-22, 2013
Feeding Many
Through the Hands
of a Few

Hmm let us guess: 5000 men plus 5000 women plus 5000 children equals 15000. Let us compare this number to the number of disciples-for simplicity we will assume we had 15 disciples. Now let us keep these numbers for the next study.

Who said that he would follow a similar pattern? Jesus himself? YHWH? Or did that came out of the heads of a bunch of idiots? But let us assume that the statement holds true. Again let us keep it for the next study.

After 16 years we find a congregation seeking the counsel of the apostles and older men in Jerusalem. Where on earth does the Bible state that these were serving as a governing body? Maybe from the heads of a bunch of idiots? What we can conclude from above verses, taking into consideration the time frame, is that a less experienced (newer) congregation sought the advice of the apostles and of the more experienced elders of the much older and well established congregation in Jerusalem. The association of those Jerusalem elders with the apostles contributed to their experience. A governing body? (Hmm btw, who does today demand that we should obey the direction he provides in order to be acceptable to Jehovah and be blessed?) So whom were they ruling over? Their 'brothers'? Isn't this unscriptural?—Ecclesiastes 8:9. Compare Jeremiah 10:23. And didn't Jesus state: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matt. 23:10. (See w10 9/15 pp. 21) Sorry but I am an anarchist and I will not buy. I view all people as equal.

No the question is why should it change? Why do we need a single organized channel? Isn't this unscriptural? "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions."

LOL, LOL, LOL! 16 years after Jesus' departure we have a governing body providing spiritual food and now ~45 years after, the sincere truth seekers, who have the complete Bible, lots of commentaries and printed material with the thoughts of the faithful from almost 2 milleniums are incapable to perform such a task. Or maybe Jesus went for a walkabout and forgot to appoint them!

See you next week!

I find it amazing that they constantly say Acts 15 is about a 'governing body' trying to settle a dispute. When you read Paul's version of things in Galatians 2, you find that he went there as a result of a revelation, thus the 'dispute' was more like Paul saying, 'hey, now... this is REALLY how things are... stop these ones coming down and teaching something they ought not!' Fascinating read.

Dear ANOMOS (peace to you, dear one!); I'm kinda tired (from my trip) still and so will turn in in a bit. In that light, I don't want you to think I overlooked your post - I have not, but want to reread it when I'm not SO tired and maybe comment, if warranted.

In the mean time, I compelled to respond to YOUR comments, dear LQ (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), at least enough to maybe shed a bit more light on exactly what took place in the accounts you're speaking of. Because there is an underlying TRUTH that many miss... and I must now share with the Body that is here.

What most (meaning, JWs) tend to overlook is that neither Paul NOR James addressed the issue of circumcision first. No, that honor belonged to Peter. He was the first to tell the Jewish brothers that circumcision was NOT required for those of the nations who received holy spirit. And the "older men" gave in to HIM when he told them this (most probably because he WAS one of the "twelve", so who could argue?). It's right there in the 11th Chapter of Acts, for anyone who wishes to read that.

Unfortunately, some were still BOUND... in HEART and MIND... to the Law... and so in spite of what Peter tried to tell them, simply could not let go, and so still tried to compel newcomers to Christ to come under the Law. Like former JWs who, although being loosed from the actual organization, have not yet ALLOWED themselves to let go of the "laws" of that organization and so try to compel new ones coming to Christ as to WTBTS "laws."

So, Paul and Barnabas encountered the affect of this when such men, Pharisaical Jews who claimed to follow Christ but still tried to push the Law, tried to push circumcision for Gentiles in Antioch, Phoenicia, Samaria, and other cities. Acts 14:26-15:5

And although Peter, one of the 12, tried AGAIN to tell them that circumcision wasn't necessary for Gentiles (i.e., here, non-Jews, but NOT including non-Jewish Israelites), which compelled such Jews to at least try and LISTEN to what Paul and Barnabas said THEY had learned about it... it wasn't until JAMES, our dear Lord's fleshly sibling, spoke up. And he wasn't even one of the 12! When he did speak up, however, the "older men" THEN joined with the apostles and entire congregation (in Jerusalem) in accepting this differentiation. Because, unlike Paul... who may not have invoked the authority of holy spirit... James, after stating HIS "decision", stated that neither the congregation nor holy spirit DESIRED to add an additional burden to the people of the nations. And so circumcision was NOT among those things "added" to those brothers. Acts 15:12-29.

And it was because of THIS that Paul and Barnabas, accompanied by others who were designated by the apostles, older men, and the congregation in Jerusalem, were sent out with letters informing the Gentile brothers in Antioch, Syria, Cilicia, and other cities... of this new understanding: that circumcision was NOT required for the people of the nations. Acts 15:23, 28.

What did/does that mean for those who are Jews/Israelites? The covenant relating to circumcision, which was first given to ABRAHAM... and so pre-dated the Law... was "to time indefinite." Genesis 17:9-14 That is why even the seed of Ishmael do it: because it was the covenant made with ABRAHAM and HIS seed. And as such, it has not ceased for that seed.

While the Law was fulfilled by and impaled with Christ... the covenant of circumcision existed BEFORE the Law. It PREDATES Moses. It was only incorporated IN the Law because the Law pertained to Israel. The covenant of circumcision, however, applies not only to Israel (the seed of Isaac) but to ALL of Abraham's seed, whether through Isaac, Ishmael... or even the sons of Keturah. Genesis 25:1, 2, 6; Matthews 2:1, 2

Does this mean that one must run out and get circumcised... or have their son(s) circumcised? Not necessarily. One would first want to discern... find out... whether one is a seed of Abraham... or a child of the nations (non-Jewish Gentile). Since BLOOD is the ONLY way to truly tell that, and since the blood of Abraham/Jews has been SO intermixed over the millenia... there is no real way to know. Except... by means of the blood... of God: holy spirit. By means of THAT blood, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... speaks. And HIS blood speaks... to ALL blood... and most particularly that of Abraham.

It would behoove anyone who wishes to know the truth about this matter to ask as to it of the One who can lead them into ALL truth. Even the truth about whose blood flows through their veins may flow through their veins... and whether circumcision IS a covenant they might want to consider keeping.

It is not a law, nor am I compelled to put anyone under law, of ANY kind... but only to share the truth. As to this matter and all things that are revealed to ME, by the [Holy] Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

I, SA, have shared this truth with you, just as I received it from my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), who is the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies.

Again, peace to you!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

What did/does that mean for those who are Jews/Israelites? The covenant relating to circumcision, which was first given to ABRAHAM... and so pre-dated the Law... was "to time indefinite." Genesis 17:9-14 That is why even the seed of Ishmael do it: because it was the covenant made with ABRAHAM and HIS seed. And as such, it has not ceased for that seed.

Wow, very enlightening point. It was a covenant Jah made prior to " the law of Moses",
One made to Abraham and his seed.

Thank you so much for this.
Love ya Justmom

Yes, Yes, YES!!! Thank you for this! This particular topic is a hot button for me, given the recent "adjustments" purported by the GB. If there is one major issue that so-called apostates have, it is that WTS claims there was a first century governing body. It can be proven beyond doubt that there was not. Not only Peter, as you so graciously pointed out, but Paul, who never is considered to be part of that first century governing body by WTS, BOTH addressed this issue. What's interesting to me is that Paul did NOT go up to get a decision. No. He went up as the result of a revelation. He had divine guidance to do so to call them out, to address, in particular, not the issue of the circumcision per se, but that there were false brothers who were teaching such things to begin with. Just because James said it was his decision, and later even said it was all of their decision (Acts 21:25), doesn't mean Paul was after a decision. He already had divine backing on this one, and he said he didn't yield on this issue, not even for an hour. (Gal 2:5)

And, yes, it was specifically for Gentiles. I don't even think WTS disputes that... at least it's not made into an issue. The bigger issue is whether that meeting was of a first-century "governing body", which it clearly was not. Those false brothers came from Judah, so the issue had to be resolved there.


WTS says it's James, the fleshly brother here, too, but some scholars say it's James the son of Alphaeus. If it's Christ's fleshly brother, then whoa... even more fodder for there not being a GB in the first century. Of course, WTS claims that James, the fleshly brother WAS an apostle, not necessarily of the 12 (the use of quotes around the word apostle indicates that). But the rank and file JW will think that just the same. Deceptive teaching. it-1 p. 1252: "Thereafter James became a prominent member and, apparently, an “apostle” of the Jerusalem congregation."

Thanks all for their comments.
leaving_quietly: Nice points!

I haven't thought of that. It explains a lot. Once again thanks.

An apostle was anyone that had seen the risen Christ.
The original 12 were the first but not the only nor the last.

The Jerusalem council was noted in Acts because it was so UNIQUE, not because it happened regularly.
The individual congregations was expected to deal with the vast majority of issues that were present to them VIA the guidance of the HS and, if available, the guidance of the elders/apostles, as we see from the letters we have of Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude.

There was no central governing body until the 4th century, they were to busy being persecuted or evangelizing.

The point of the council in Acts was to show how the vital issues of gentile circumcision was addressed and what we have is Paul and Barnabas expressing their view, Peter agreeing and expressing his and James exerting his influence as Our Lords' brother ( a very big thing in 1st century Jewish culture).

What should be noted in Acts and ALL the rest of the NT is that NO ONE is ordered by a "corporate body" to do anything or go anywhere, the HS does that.
No doctrines are formulated by a "small group of men" and passed down as "official", the HS does that and, as we see with Paul and others, INDIVIDUALS do indeed CONTEST established doctrines.

In short, what the Jerusalem council in ACTS truly does is show individuals driven by the HS CHANGE established rules made up by "corporate bodies".

Yes, yes, dear LQ and dear P (peace to you, both!). What I find most interesting... with the WTBTS... AS WELL ALL other "christian" religions... is how they misuse the "authority" of Paul. Paul spoke as he did because he was COMPELLED: he had to take the place of Stephen who WOULD have gone to the nations, but was put to death (at Paul's pushing!). It wasn't Paul who chose Christ, but Christ who chose Paul "to suffer" for Christ's name. And suffer he did, sometimes because of his new station... sometimes because of his... mmmmm... "pharisaical" tendencies.

But even PAUL said:

"NOT that we are master OVER YOUR FAITH."

And, after learning his lesson after the debacle at Corinth, where he told the Body to judge those inside, made a 180 degree about face when writing to the Romans (whom he questioned as to judging, even condemning the judging that some were doing!).

In following the "authority" of Paul... which "authority" was often in error when our dear brother started out, they overlook the authority of CHRIST... the things HE said... and the authority of holy spirit, which JOHN, considered worthy enough by our dear Lord to receive the Revelation, said would teach us. And what he said it CRITICAL to us understanding not only WHO would teach us (Christ said we have ONE teacher, HIM!)... but HOW he would teach us:

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that [Jesus] is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

"As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 John 2:18-27 (NIV)

Yet, these men have the arrogance, the audacity, the... wicked will... to set THEMSELVES up... not only over those who have received such anointing, NOT just over Christ, but over holy spirit! A triple whammie!

We can know, however, that there was no "governing body" in the first century on the basis of one statement from Christ:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." Matthew 23:8-12

So, it doesn't matter what Paul said, or James said, or John said... or Shelby or tec or 'Mom or PSacto, or... or... or... said... or the WTBTS GB said. All that matters is what CHRIST said... and says. THAT is what we are to share. THAT is what the disciples and apostles were to share. Nothing more... and nothing less. And if what we, man, shares does NOT comport with what he, the HOLY One of Israel said/says... then we MUST reject it as false.

Because HIS mouth always... ALWAYS... speaks what is true and what is upright. Through HIM let God be found TRUE, though every MAN a liar. Even the members of the GB of the WTBTS.

Good Lordy, may those poor folks wake up... and see this... and so get OUT of that harlot... and SOON! Because the blind guides that head her up are heading for the pit... and those following them risk going right along with! We don't want ANY to have that destiny, though, so the hope should be that more "Ray Franzes" will wake up. And more DOs, COs, elder, etc. Because it is to THEM that the people are looking FOR guidance... and NOT to Christ.

Although, I'm not sure just how much influence the GB REALLY has - given my meeting with one of them, I am compelled to believe that for the most part they, too, are merely puppets. Willing puppets, though, so... Gotta be pretty "heady" to be asked to be one that lot. Who could refuse? The kingdoms of the world NOW? Shooooot... LOLOL!

Ah, well...

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Shelby,

Thank you for reminding me of those verses... not that I have forgotten, but because they simply bear repeating.

You quoted 1 John 2:21, which is now one of my new favorites, but for a different reason:

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.

The "truth" that WT spat out yesterday is today's lie (they call it old light, but if it's not "truth", what is it?) Today's "truth" is tomorrow's lie. And so on. 1 John 2:21 shows us how that cannot work.

Peace to you,
~ LQ