xjwsforChrist

To the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... may you all have peace!

Given what's going on in the world... and what is yet to come... I would sometimes (but not often) wonder if perhaps I should get to know what Muslims (actually) "believe"... well, are supposed to believe... as it might give me a (bit of) foundation on which to discuss the topic of "faith" (if not counter assumptions as to my own), should the need arise. I should say, when the need arises, because my understanding from my dear Lord is that it will arise, somehow, someway, somewhere... one day. I mean, trying to discuss [what's in] the Bible with someone who hasn't read it can be a two-edged sword: either they might utterly dismiss anything you have to say ("It's all mythological!")... or blindly gulp down anything you (or others) say, just because you said it, even if it's NOT in the Bible (and we ALL know that that's likely with a LOT of people).

Also, I have a couple of friends who are Muslims and they really don't fit what we're told (by various media, pundits, bigots, fear-mongerers, and fearful). They're both pretty normal people, although... and you might find this amusing... the man is one of the kindest, gentlest, most respectful people... men... I know... and the woman, while always putting on a PRETENSE of being "meek and mild," will blow your hair back if she doesn't think anyone's watching. I've seen her, as have others, and we're all always flabbergasted. Well, used to be - the gig is up with her, now. But, still, I mean, she's "normal." Her "high" morals don't seem to stop her from losing her cool when she's PO'd about something. And sometimes it doesn't take much. My point is not to malign her but to say she's no different than most women, really, save her religious piety [which she conveniently uses to her better advantage - wait... did I say she was a Muslim? Almost sounded like I was describing a Jehovah's Witness! LOL! I digress.]

Finally, my curiosity is peeked because, well, we all have "Abraham" in common. Well, claim to. Okay, Jews, Muslims, and Christians are SUPPOSED to (have him in common)... and at least two (Jews and Muslims) rely HEAVILY on that ancestry to justify why they're so... "chosen"... "better"... whatever (although, the Jews do invoke Moses and the Muslims, Mohammed)... None of these, however, as institutions, actually really emulate Abraham, though - to the contrary, they more often than not act in opposition to HIS ways.

Take, for example, the middle eastern land grab between the Jews and Arabs. As dear Tec brought out in a discussion we had on the matter, didn't ABRAHAM let LOT choose... then took whatever Lot DIDN'T want? Yet, God didn't say to Abraham, "I give this land to you and Lot; let him choose first and then whatever he doesn't take is yours." At least, that's not how some of the Jews sing it ("This land is mind, God gave this land to MEEEeeeee!" - from The Exodus movie - LOL!).

I've pondered on this for a few years now and for some reason I couldn't get up the nerve to read the Quran. I dunno, WTBTS baggage, I'm sure, because my "fear" was that I would be, I dunno "converted." Turned away from JAH/Christ and toward Islam. I know, I know... stoopid. Well, it WAS stoopid because the other day... my Lord told me it was time to read it. Yep, read the Quran.

So... I had dear hubby get me a Quran. And he did. Two, in fact. And I started reading. Well, before I did, my Lord told me to do some research. Look up how the Quran is laid out. How the chapters/sections are. What version is considered the "best" (i.e., most accurate). Get a sense of things. Which I did... and it has been VERY helpful.

Okay, so I started reading and... guess what? Not scary at all. To the contrary, some good stuff in there. Problem is... is ain't about Mohammed, as Muslims have been led to believe. It's about... yep... our dear Lord. Unfortunately, Muslims have been misled into believing the the Prophet, Mohammed... is speaking about himself. An understandable mistake, of course, given how ancient... okay, in this case, old... writings were written (or whatever I mean - penned, laid out, etc.). Also, how language was then and is now... and, of course, how things are transliterated/translated. But... it's true: he isn't speaking of himself. He does refer to "The Messenger," and since he is considered a messenger (along with others), the ASSUMPTION is that he is speaking of himself. If Muslims new Christ, however, they would know who was being spoken of.

They don't know Christ, don't know the Bible (for the most part)... as don't most Christians or Jews. Know neither Christ nor the Bible. Oh, they know various verses, sure. But you know what I mean - they know what the words "say"... but not what the Word says... or the writers MEANT... THROUGH the words. Ah, well...

There are a few things I found interesting (I'm not done, though, more to read):

One, the writers mention "Jesus" a LOT. MORE than Mohammed, thus far. That could change but for now, references to "Jesus" far out number references to "Mohammed." Actually, I think "Mohammed" has been mentioned only once thus far. Again, the MESSENGER is mentioned, but again, Muslims believe that to be Mohammed. Is not.

I asked the lady Muslim friend about this... well, I started to. I asked her about "Mary" and "Jesus," because Mary is also mentioned a lot. And you should have seen my friend's face light up - "We LOVE Mary! Oh, christians think we don't, think we don't know about Mary, but we LOVE Mary!!" Ho-kaayyyyy... I didn't ask her why, just then, but you can bet I will. She did say that they also loved and had great respect for "Jesus," that they believe he DID live, was a GREAT "Prophet" and "Messenger." I didn't push her further on that, either. Another time.

The second thing is the when "God" speaks, "He" almost ALWAYS refers to "we", "us", "our," etc. "He" almost never refers to "Himself" as a singular entity, but as part of some kind of plurality. Of course, you know I know why this is, but I wanted to know what Muslims thought about that. My (Internet) research says that the Muslim belief is that "God" is speaking of Himself only... but in a way as, say, well... I'll explain like this... as a mom might talk to a child ("Now, honey, we need to get our booties on before we can go outside and play. Here, Mommy has her boots on; let's get out booties on, too!"). See what I mean? I was like... oh, c'mon... REALLY??

But, yep, that's how they explain that.

The third thing was the regard for women, and in two sense: treating women, including "bad" women... and polygamy. From what I've read thus far (I'm in Surah 4, which is the part ABOUT women, particularly)... women are SUPPOSED to be treated quite kindly. Even bad women. Yep, even if a man catches a woman messing around, he can't kill her. He can't even beat her. Well, not severely. The wording was to do it "lightly." Slap her a around a little, I guess. But NOTHING said bruise her, maim her, kill her. To the contrary, after slapping her around (lightly, folks, lightly! And no, I'm not condoning, just explaining the difference)... he was supposed to treat her kindly if she stopped, and let her go if she didn't. BIG difference, IMHO, from what I understand (many) Muslim men to believe they're SUPPOSED to do.

As for polygamy, there is a part that says a man can take one, two, three, or four wives. BUT... I did not get the sense... at ALL... that it was at the same time! Rather, I got that once he divorced one, he could take another... and if he divorced that one, another... and if he divorced that one... another... and so on. I could see, by the wording, if taken alone, how some could come to believe that multiple wives at the same time was okay. But read in CONTEXT... sorry, but I don't think that's what it's saying.

Anyway, in just the bit I've read I've come to understand that just like there are different "christians" (Catholic, Protestant, Fundamental... JWs, etc.)... and different "jews" (Messianic, Orthodox, Reformed, Contemporary, etc.)... there are different Muslims. But I don't mean just Shiite, Sunni, Alawi, etc.. I mean, there are those who read and try to adhere to the Quran... and there are those who go by what others TELL them "the Quran 'says'." And as with the other two factions, these two are also in error.

As to the first one, those who read and try to adhere to the Quran, they are just like those who read and try to adhere to the Torah/Old Testament. The "laws" leading to death. They are burdensome, enslaving, impossible to fulfill completely. And, because they ARE impossible... reward it's (attempted) adherents with death. Sadly, none of those who try to do so can grasp this, even those who claim to be "christian" (2 Corinthians 3:13-18). It is the same with those who are trying to adhere to the Quran. Like the others, they look to laws written on paper... rather than on the heart.

As to the second, well, that's the whole "blind leading the blind and so both fall into the pit," thing. Those poor folks, most of whom are probably illiterate and if not, suffer from either reading comprehension issues or minimal education... and so are like 7-year olds who, although able to comprehend a "Curious George" can't go much further than that and certainly not grasp the complexities of, say, a tome like "War and Peace." And so, they just give up and let others tell them what "it says/means."

Both are dangerous courses, though, in light of what they CLAIM to be pursuing: the knowledge of God.

Anyway, I am sharing this to let you know what I am "doing" at this time, as well as that there really is nothing to fear "in the Quran." At least, not thus far. Rather, there is some benefit, perhaps GREAT benefit. What could that possible be? Well, remember what I have shared with you many times previously as to what our dear Lord said to me:

"Not EVERYTHING that is written (in the Bible) is what I will tell you;
But EVERYTHING that I will tell you... IS written (but not necessarily in the Bible)."

Written WHERE (else), then? The Quran, too, maybe? It's entirely possible, although not JUST in the Quran, too. Other books (Enoch, Jashar, Barak, books of the Apocrypha, books not contained in any known canon...). Not saying that the Quran is inspired (any more than certain books of the Bible are). What I THINK happened is that someone found some (of the) Writings... even scripture (inspired writings)... and plageurized their contents to create yet another [set of] "writings." As was done with the Mishnah and Gemara (Talmud)... and various versions of the Bible. I think this because as I was pondering whether there WAS some "truth" in the Quran, my dear Lord said to me:

"Did I not have my servant tell Israel, 'The words of the wise are like oxgoads, and their collected sayings are like firmly embedded nails; they have been given from one shepherd. As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.'" Ecclesiastes 12:11, 12

What did he mean? Well, first, we have to take out the ERROR... which is the phrase "collected sayings" and the inference that it is the collected saying of wise MEN. It's not in all Bible versions but in some. Why is it included in some versions? To justify the various collections of sayings... or BOOKS... that are used to lead... goad... drive... people. The Bible, the Torah, the Talmud, the Quran... all considered collections of the sayings of the "wise". These "wise", however, are men. Not JAH and Christ. And the "collection" is not of the sayings... but those to whom the sayings are directed: the "assembly"... "collection"... or congregation... of his PEOPLE.

So, let's look at how the verses SHOULD read:

"The words of WISDOM are like oxgoads and like firmly embedded nails IN THE CONGREGATION/ASSEMBLY; they have been GIVEN from ONE shepherd. As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh."

He meant that HIS words (he, being Wisdom - Proverbs 8:1-36) are what drives and firmly anchors [those of] his BODY, the "Congregation/Assembly" of the FIRST BORN (Hebrews 12:23). They are given by HIM... ONE shepherd... and NOT from many (men). And as for anything BESIDES his words... be warned: they're going to make a lot of books. Never stop making them. And tell people they have to read them, live by what's in them. Devotion to those books, however, is wearisome to the flesh. "Wearisome" in that the flesh CANNOT fulfill what those books say the flesh must DO.

If one turns to HIM, though, that wearisome-ness is relieved. How? By REFRESHMENT OF THE FLESH... due to REFRESHMENT of the SPIRIT:

"The law of JaHVeH is perfect, refreshing the soul." Psalm 19:7

"JaHVeH is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
he refreshes my soul." Psalm 23:1-3

"When you, God, went out before your people,
when you marched through the wilderness,
the earth shook, the heavens poured down rain,
before God, the One of Sinai,
before God, the God of Israel.
You gave abundant showers, O God; you refreshed your weary inheritance." Psalm 68:7-9

"I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.” Jeremiah 31:25

"... this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Messiah would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from JaHVeH and that He may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jah'eShua. Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, ‘JaHVeH your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you." Acts 3:18-22

That "law"... is LOVE. EVEN... of one's enemies (Matthew 5:43-48. THAT is what makes us "perfect." Not adhering to decrees and shalt's and shalt not's. Not washing the hands and praying in certain directions a specific number of times a day. Not wearing head-coverings/caps. Not refusing to cut our hair/beards. Not abstaining from certain kinds of meats or associating with certain kinds of people. It is love and only love... to the point of including one's enemies.

And as we can see, many, indeed most (so-called) christians... Jews... AND Muslims... and stumbling over THAT "law." Because they stumble over the One sent to manifest it for us. Christ, the Stone of Stumbling. None of these will get it, receive that "refreshment" of their souls... until they say:

"BLESSED... is HE... who [comes] in the name of JAH." Matthew 23:37-39

And I don't mean just say the words. Christ meant MEAN the words. BELIEVE them... and demonstrate that belief by LIVING it. The various wars between Jews and Muslims, Muslims and "christians," "christians and Jews"... for millenia, however, all belie that the law of God is written on their hearts.

May any here who are wishing, hear the truth of these things... and the Spirit and his Bride... when they say to YOU:

"Come! Take LIFE'S (Christ's - John 14:6) water... which "water" is the holy spirit of God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH... who breathes ARMIES of spirits... LIFE... into existence - His blood, breath, and seed - and brings REFRESHMENT... LIFE... as water DOES to those who partake of it... and is poured out only from the innermost part of His Son and installed King, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

Came across this (peace to you, all!):

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/23/10660648/ ... am?ref=yfp

Also, forgot to mention the correlation between the Muslim belief that the "Messenger" of the Quran was Mohammed referring to himself. It is the situation of the Ethiopian eunuch who wondered, when reading Isaiah, such that he asked Philip:

"Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about? Himself or someone else?" Acts 8:34

We know from the account, yes, but also from know g the writings of Isaiah ourselves, that he was talking about someone else.

That is also the case as to Mohammed: although he was a messenger/prophet (perhaps true, perhaps false), he is not the Messenger/Prophet of the Quran.

Again, peace to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Very interesting indeed. I have been wanting to read the Quran online, but the formatting of it is horrible for the english language. http://clearquran.com isn't quite so bad. I just wish I could find one without verse numbers. At least this one doesn't have the arabic next to it... not that that's inappropriate, but it is a distraction to me, as an english speaker/reader. Maybe I'll give it another shot soon.

I started reading it yesterday. It's hard to get through as the English translation seems broken up. There are sentence fragments, and sometimes I note verses ending in a period where it's likely no period should be as the next verse seems to continue. An example is in (3:3, 4):


So, it's hard to read with the verse breaks and the punctuation in odd places.

That said, it is a very interesting read so far. It confirms that at least portions of the Bible (the Book) are considered Scripture. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Criterion (which, I gather is the Law.) And, yes, there are a few references to Jesus so far, but I do not get the idea that he is included in the "We". For example (2:87):


Or (2:136):


It's also noteworthy that it calls on people to be charitable and honest, and only fight when others bring the fight to them, not being the aggressors.

Greetings, dear LQ... and peace to you and your dear household! It is tricky, for several reasons: the original language isn't English AND the translation/transliterations may not be totally accurate. Hence, not only do the sentences seem fragmented, but many are AND aren't even accurate. For example, the verses you quoted:



The first statement is inaccurate and the second is entirely false. How so? The first is mistransliterated... because the scribes don't KNOW JAH and so don't know what was REALLY meant. Which was:

"He sent down to you the WORD... OF [the] Truth."

Remember, the Quran was written AFTER the writings contained in the Bible, including the NT. So, these folks (Quran scribes) didn't know what was meant. According to some additional research, Mohammed didn't write the Quran - others did. HE shared orally, with others writing down what he shared, then others translating/transliterating. If those who did so didn't understand what Mohammed MEANT, well, the current translations make sense. Not literally, but that they contain the errors (in transliteration, identification, and meaning) that they do. Same as with the Bible, Talmud, etc.

IF, though, ANY of these... and anyone SINCE... uses the proper "KEY" to crack the "code" of these writings, they'll see what was truly meant. What is the key? CHRIST! So, let's continue:



Not true! While we can say, yes, the Pentateuch was inspired, "scripture", the "Torah" includes more than that. It includes rabbinical "commentary" which is NOT inspired but opinions and proclamations of MAN. JAH would never send man proclamations FROM man. In addition, we know the OT ("Gospel") was NOT inspired... and so is NOT "scripture"... and so was ALSO not "sent." What was SENT... was Christ himself and then holy spirit. Remember, Christ himself SAID ("in the 'gospel'):

"You SEARCH the scriptures... because you THINK that by means of THEM you will have life. And these are the very ones that bear witness to ME. Yet you do not want to come to ME that you may HAVE life." John 5:39, 40



Try this: use the "key." LOOK for Christ in the statement. If you do that, HE will reveal himself TO you in the reading, if he indeed is in the statement. If he is not, you will know that, as well, and that the statement is merely commentary/dicta.



Again, it wasn't the Bible that JAH sent. While He did give the Writings, that is what is "scripture." As you state, portions of the Bible are scripture; however, the assumption here is that the Bible (the "Book") is ALL scripture, including the Gospel. Of the OT, however, only the Revelation is "scripture." And again, the Torah is not JUST scripture, but the Pentateuch (the Torah Shebichtav or "Torah that is written"), and an Oral Torah (the Torah Shebe'al Peh or "Torah that is spoken").

So what do we have? We have another person, Mohammed, who thought HE understood what God meant for Israel, post-Christ in the flesh, who himself didn't know... proclamating... but without listening to or even knowing Christ... and thus proliferating even MORE errors. Like the GB, Pope's, Joseph Smiths, Aztecs, Jerry Falwells, Billy Grahams, Joseph Smith's, etc., of the world. ALL of these have the same error in common: stumbling over the Stone [of Stumbling]... which is Christ:

Mohammed --> "Allah"
GB --> "Jehovah"
Popes --> "Mary/Saints"
Joseph Smith --> "Nephi"
Aztecs --> "Queztelcoatl"
Falwells/Grahams and many, many others --> "Jesus"

And then you have Buddha, Confucius, Siddartha, Vishnu, the Dalai Lama, etc., etc., etc.

NONE of these tell people the TRUTH... ABOUT the Truth, however... and that is that he (the Truth) is the HOLY One of Israel AND Holy Spirit... whose name is JAHESHUA... and who is the Chosen One... of JAH (MischaJAH), who is the MOST HOLY One of Israel. They don't... because they don't know EITHER of these persons. They don't know the first... because they don't LISTEN to the first, and hence, the Father has not drawn them TO the first. They don't listen to the SECOND... because they don't listen to the FIRST... and go THROUGH him, in order to get TO the second. Rather, they rely on (1) the words of FALSE prophets and FALSE christs, and (2) their OWN understanding.

And, yes, there are a few references to Jesus so far, but I do not get the idea that he is included in the "We".

That, though, is because of the mistransliterations.



But Christ DID give Moses the Law. Remember, he is JAH's Word. JAH speaks THROUGH him. NO ONE can come to the Father UNLESS they come through Christ. JAH spoke TO Moses... THROUGH Christ:

"After six days [Jesus] took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with [Jesus]." Matthew 17:1-3

"By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel." Hebrews 11:24-28



This is true, TOO. Not only do we have our dear Lord's words that no one can come to the Father except through him, but we have examples. David, through whom our dear Lord issues songs. Solomon, through whom our dear Lord issued wise proverbs. The Prophets, including Daniel:

"On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude. Revelation 1:13-15

"I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground. A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.

"He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

"Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

"While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. Then one who looked like a man touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

"Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. 19 “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! (Matthew 10:12-14; Luke 10:5, 24:36; John 20:19, 21, 26) Be strong now; be strong.”

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.” Daniel 10:4-19

Except for JAH Himself, there is only One whom Daniel would have bowed down before AND called "Lord,". Only One (who is not of the Adversary) would allow it:

"Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of [Jesus]. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to [Jesus].” Revelation 19:9, 10; Genesis 41:15-45



LOLOLOL! Sigh. This is merely another false means to support a "trinity" (although, again, Muslims explain the "we" as one speaking of Himself in plurality). But, again, neither Mohammed nor those who wrote down what he (claimed to have) shared (because much has been altered) knew God OR Christ. In this instance, "the Holy Spirit" is yet another entity, one higher than Christ. That is a "CHRISTIAN" teaching, as is much of what the Quran shares are about "Jesus." But there is no one higher than Christ except the Father, JAH Himself.

In that light, is the use of "we" still valid? It is! Because our dear Lord often did not speak of himself directly. He sometimes referred to himself as "the Son of Man." He also didn't refer directly to himself as the Holy Spirit... but said the FATHER would send that Spirit... himself glorified... back to lead his people. So, I see no problem with "we" including JAH and Christ, yet sending Christ in the FLESHLY VESSEL that was to be called "Immanuel"... or "JahEshua." Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21, 23, 25

The second, "JahEshua," is the name given US to call the Son of God. The name we are to call on, listen to, and give testimony to. That is not his TRUE name, though, is it?

"His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself." Revelation 19:12

Just as our names now are not our TRUE names before JAH and Christ:

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it." Revelation 2:17

Of course, JAH knows these names, as does Christ. But no one besides JAH (for Christ)... and JAH and Christ (for us) know them. And it by these names that we will be known to JAH (and Christ). Each will know his/her own name. Christ will know that name. And JAH will know Christ's name and our names. But will not know one another's names. Why? So that when one is CALLED... NO ONE ELSE CAN ANSWER. No one else can pretend to be "chosen" or "transform themselves" into something... or someone... they are not!



Interesting, isn't it? I doubt many "christians" know this, though. Even so, this does post-date "the Bible." And hence, given what Jews and (so-called) christians claim to believe... and what they put their hope on ("the Bible"), it's safe to say that modern Islam is really nothing more than yet another daughter of the Harlot... Babylon the Great. Muslims would have done better sticking to Ishmael... and law that Abraham gave him (and so was written on his HEART, as it was on Isaac's)... than to take this course. Everyone pointing fingers at everyone else... and all doing the same thing: ignoring God's Word, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH). They are all doing this because they are all looking at MEN... rather than at the Copper Serpent.



YES! And my Muslim friend said as much when we spoke about Mary, etc., the other day. She said ISIS, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc., are all thugs, that Muslims are only allowed to fight BACK to PROTECT themselves, but not start fight or seek vengeance. Which made sense, given the "peaceableness" of the other Muslims I know, and particularly my gentle friend, Nazir.

I hope we can continue this discussion. I think it's going to be VERY important for those of us of the Body of Christ to "know" Ishmael. To understand our brother (Muslims) just as we understand our [other] brothers, Judah (Jews)... and those of Israel who call themselves "christians." It's like folks trying to understand JWs, but not knowing what they TRULY believe. Your conversation is limited and your assumptions are probably wrong. Same here. However, it might be to the preserving alive of ourselves/our households to know "Ishmael" at this point.

I will share this: if it ever comes down to it and Muslims are opposing me/my faith, I will NOT say that I am a "christian." Because I am not, at least not by THIS world's standards and definitions and so by what Muslims believe "christians" are. I am not one. I AM, however, a "son of Abraham", through Isaac. I DO worship the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Moses, the Prophets, and the One known to them as "Jesus." That is the TRUTH.

But to say I am a "christian" to a Muslim, again as such understand that term... is NOT true. I am not sure, though, that I would have time to explain the DIFFERENCE, though, and so I will call upon our mutuality in Abraham, et al.

If I am asked about "Jesus," I have NO problem saying I don't believe in, worship, or follow "Jesus." If, though, they ask me about "Christ" (without the "Jesus" part)... well, I guess I'll have some 'splainin' to do. Hopefully, they will grant me the time.

Peace to you, dear LQ... and to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Yes, in fact, it stresses that it is always BEST to show mercy, even if it is 'lawful' for you to strike back when someone wrongs you.

Here are a couple of verses I highlighted during my readings:

Better and more enduring is God's recompense to those who believe and put their trust in Him; who avoid grievous sins and lewd acts, and when angered, are willing to forgive; who obey their Lord, attend to their prayers and conduct their affairs by mutual consent; who give in alms from what WE gave them and when oppressed, seek to redress their wrongs. Let evil be rewarded with evil. But he that forgives and seeks reconcilement shall be recompensed by God.

**

True servants of the Merciful are those who walk humbly on the earth and say: 'Peace!' to the ignorant who accost them.

(which is exactly what Christ did and teaches us to do)

**

If you punish, let your punishment be commensurate with the wrong that has been done you. But it shall be best for you to endure your wrongs with patience. Be patient, then: God will grant you patience.



It sounds very similar to me, when Moses made allowances for the people (in letting them divorce their wives, etc), but that God made it clear that "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."


It is also noteworthy that no one is supposed to harm those who disbelieve. Only give warning, and leave the rest to God. No killing the infidel (though permission is granted to fight back against them if they are fighting you).


***

The Quran I have translates Apostle in place of Messenger (as Shelby's version translates). It would be interesting to have a 'greek interlinear' equivalent for the Quran. Especially when you consider the error of the scribes in the Bible even if just in translation, and my understanding is that no 'holy book' is free from error.



**

As to who the Quran is truly about. There is something that could keep people/scribes (then and now) from even being able to recognize Christ in the Quran (other than as "Jesus"). Please consider these verses about Babylon the Great:

By your magic spell, all the nations were led astray.
Rev 18;23
He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. Rev 19;2

For all the nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries.

"ALL the nations were led astray."

Babylon the Great has certainly misled the "christian" nation, even the elect if possible. But would not the Jewish nation and the Muslim nations be included in 'all the nations' here?

Babylon the great and her 'daughters' in Christendom have held up "Jesus" - the second part of the trinity. But no (well, few) Jews or Muslims are going to accept this as accurate because they know God is not a trinity. My guess is that it was the RCC and also Orthodox who were around most at the time of Muslim/Christian clashes, because the Quran is pretty heavy on Mary as well (as the RCC and Orthodox churches are). And it does not surprise me that Muslims greatly love Mary, as your friend told you Shelby, because from what I have learned, Muslims are meant to revere motherhood and greatly honor mothers. I don't know which came first, but it made sense to me when I read it in your post.

In any case, it would be pretty hard to see Christ in the Quran other than as "Jesus" because that was the image of Christ given by the 'church' at the time. Jesus, part of a trinity. Unless one was looking at Christ Himself, rather than at Christendom, to know who HE is... how could one know who He truly is?

**

There is truth in the Quran as well as in other "holy books", and also some error. Just as all religions have some truth, and also some error. But there is also TRUTH (Christ) in that book. Not necessarily the passages on "Jesus", because those seem more a reaction against the "trinity Jesus" and "trinity God"... as well as carrying on in some of the false things that Christianity taught about "Jesus"..

But this verse (part of the 43rd Surah):

None can intercede for them save him who knows the truth and testifies to it.

This part of the chapter is arguing against Christians and their idea of God/Jesus/trinity. But we know that the one who knows the truth and testifies to the truth (because He is the Truth), and who intercedes for men (the mediator between man and God)... is Christ.


There are other passages like that, as well as the continuous statement to Obey God and His Apostle. In fact:

He that obeys God and His Apostle shall dwell for ever in gardens watered by running streams. That is the supreme triumph. But he that defies God and His Apostle and transgresses His bounds shall be cast into a Fire wherein he will abide for ever.

(the book I have does not capitalize Apostle in the above verse, but does in other verses)


Just because the assumption is that Muhammad is that Apostle (or Messenger) does that mean that assumption is true? Or is that just what the people and scribes thought/came to believe?


Much in the same way that Jewish people think that many of the passages we know are about Christ... THEY think are referring to Israel (themselves).

They are looking at themselves, and at Christendom's image of Christ to see "Jesus" (part of a trinity that they know to reject), and are unable then to see and recognize and hear the Truth -> Christ Jaheshua, the Living Spirit and Word and Truth of God.

Oh.


They are all looking at themselves , and/or at the image Christendom gives of "jesus" (Christendom cannot see past that image, and the other two nations know to reject that image, but are still 'blinded' by it)... and so are not looking to the Truth God gave us: Christ Jaheshua, the Living Image, Word, and Spirit.



Please forgive me if this post is jumping all over the place. I kind of got caught up and carried along.

Remember the understanding we received about life for life/eye for eye? Remember the understanding Armand received about the "morning star". How easy it is to accept and believe ingrained things, traditional understandings? Throw BTG into the mix, misleading all the nations - not just her own - and it becomes a lot easier to see how so much in this world has been misunderstood.


Peace to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you both, and loving your discussion! I hope I have not derailed anything. I knew from my Lord that BTG had led them (Islam, and Muslims) astray as well, but I had not understood that they could be yet another daughter of BTG. Now THAT makes perfect sense, Shelby, thank you for sharing that!


Oh, there is a verse that should show them that Islam has 'failed' and fallen short, every bit as much as any other religion:

"Have nothing to do with those who divide their religion up into sects."

That was a rebuke against Christianity and Judaism. But it is also true of Islam.

As Christ said, ""Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand."





Your servant and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

YES, YES, YES... dear Tams (peace to you and your household, luv!). YES!! We've had this (erroneous) thinking that they are "different." And it appears that they are NOT but yet another daughter, something I didn't now before, either. What seems to have occurred is that, seeing the... mmmmmm... "disobedience" in Judaism and "Christianity," someone... sought to "right" the "wrongs." Rather than looking to Christ, however, they went BACK... and looked to Abraham and HIS legacy through Ismael.

And so... you have SOME of the law of love (given to Abraham and written on HIS heart... then passed to his sons, Ishmael and Isaac) - mercy, forgiveness, wishes for peace, not to attack first, etc., but then JUST as the Jews and (so-called) "christians" left OFF that law... as manifest by CHRIST, because of their stumbling OVER him... so, too, Islam (Muslims).

How, though, would they be a daughter of Babylon the Great? By being just another "offspring" spawned by those who claim to be betrothed/married to Christ. Here, Muslims don't make that claim, but their "holy" book greatly mimics the false teachings/beliefs (as to Christ) that they learned ABOUT him FROM. THEY are not part of that Bride so long as they keep touching THAT "unclean" thing... but that doesn't mean JAH's people aren't in HER, as well ("Get OUT of her, MY people")!

I mean, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, WILL take out of the NATIONS "a people for HIS name," right?

So, I am not so sure that we should be afraid of Muslims as much as we, who profess to be of the Body of Christ, might need to try and understand what they (say they) believe, so that if... when... issues comes up we have more to fall back on with THEM than just, "Yes, I'm a 'christian' - I love 'Jeezuz'"... because we don't have anything ELSE to say.

COULD be the difference between life... and death. In THIS world.

Not trying to scare anyone. Just sayin': I would much rather be in a position where I might be able to REASON with a (radical) Muslim, maybe even help HIM know the Truth... than be JUST another casualty (should things come to that). Not saying I won't be a casualty... but I don't intend to be a common one. Not with JAH's help through Christ.

Peace to you, all... and to your dear, dear households this day!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

I find this interesting, I have never read the Quaran either but it sounds like a lot of Muslims haven't either by the way some of them live.
I guess that's because a lot are illiterate or just lazy and let others tell them what to take from it. Just like Catholics and JW's and Mormons etc.

Spot on, dear Zoe!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Yes to this dear Zoe, peace to you this day.

I haven't read it either just started looking at it. But your comment made me think of something I read the other day and it fits as to the part of " the way some live"...

It said, " It doesn't matter if you can quote the bible from front to back IF YOU LIVE like you've never opened the book."

The point our Lord let me see is that if His law of Love is not ON our hearts therefore IN us, then it doesn't matter what "we know."

And this is where the fruit age of His spirit will be manifest in all of mankind.

Peace to all of you, and thank you for all your sharing, your sister in Christ, Kim

Greetings and peace,

Something I need to clarify as to this statement and quote I shared earlier is this...

My reference was to those that can quote what Christ taught and lived and His Love that one may read about in " the bible"...
Because as I have been reminded if you just rely on what is written especially in the OT and some of the issues in the NT, there are many actually living up to what is written in it. Which is why we see so much judgement, hate, condemning and lack of Love in the world.

Thank you Jah and Christ for allowing me to see this, love your fellow servant of His, Kim

Bravo, dear 'Mom (peace to you, luv!)

Because we can search the scriptures all we want, can we not, and STILL not grasp what Christ meant when he said:

"Why do you call me 'Lord! Lord!'... and not DO the things *I* say?"

Following what's in the Bible is one of the reasons people DON'T do what he says (they walk by sight - the words they read in the OT and Paul's early writings - and not by FAITH... in the voice of the Fine Shepherd)... and so why so much of the wrong we see going on in the world occurs.

Thanks for clarifying!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Greeting and Peace to you ALL:

Of interesting note to, is that our God, when he "sends" something to people, it's not a book. He and His Son tell us what (or whom) he "sends." What he sends IS, however, recorded for us. Check out: Jeremiah 35:15; Jeremiah 44:4; Matthew 23:34; and Luke 11:49.

When He "sends" he "sends" living persons. This is what my Lord just reminded me of.

Peace.

--Armand

Thanks for those verses, dear Armand (peace to you, dear brother!). That's why when the Quran mentions "send[ing] the "Book", it really actually referring to the "Word" that was sent... which Word is Christ:

"They were foolish and suffered affliction
On account of their transgressions and their errors.
They lost their appetite for all food;
They drew near the gates of death.
They would call to JaHVeH for help in their distress;
He would save them from their plight.
He would send his Word and heal them
And rescue them from the pit."

Psalm 107:17-20; Proverbs 13:17; Isaiah 53:5; Ezekiel 47:12 (but note, there is only one tree; singular; Matthew 4:23, 24; 8:7, 13, 16; Mark 5:34; 6:56; 10:52; Acts 9:43; Revelation 22:2 - and compare Zechariah 11:16 with [b]John 10:11-15

So as not to disrupt the topic of this thread (any more than I have already), I've moved the rest of the comments to another separate thread:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2771

Peace to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel