xjwsforChrist

The issue with Islam has never really been the book, though there are serious problems in that book.
It has always been that it caters to the extremist.

A movie once spelled out the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity really well:
The God of Moses says Obey.
The God of Mohammed says Submit.
Christ says Choose.

I never really understood that until I met with a few converts from Islam and "discussed" Islam with a couple of teachers of Islam.

The funny thing is that it really isn't the extremists that are the problem with Islam, it is the moderates.
When was the last time you saw moderate Muslims denounce terrorist attacks?
When was the last time you saw a moderate denounce Islamic extremists groups like ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah?
Oh yes they are very vocal and saying "not us, not me" or "its just a small group" BUt where is the actual denouncing of the acts?

For evil to succeed, all it takes is for good people to do nothing.
It is an old and appropriate quote that, in the context of Islam is read:
For extremists to succeed, all it takes is for the moderates to do nothing.

Peace to you Paul! Good to see you.




Obey and submit are the same thing aren't they? The submit part in Islam is submitting to God. Meaning, obey God. Is there a difference? I may be missing something, but they seem to be the same thing to me.

And if you choose to follow Christ (and so His Father as well) - or if you love Him - then doesn't that also mean to obey?


Saying 'Your will be done'... isn't that also submitting (to God)?


Now, what men have done with these religions that they have built around "Jesus", around God... that is an entirely different matter of course, and there are many such 'daughters'.





This is the second link that came up for me when I googled "moderates denounce extremists in Islam." You might find it interesting. Because the lying pen of the scribes (or at least the misleading pen of the scribes) exists in the media as well.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-jam ... 22518.html



Peace again to you,
your servant, and sister, and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Yes, Armand... and yes as to what Shelby commented on this as well. I kept reading where in the Quran it says 'we sent the Book', and wondering if they were trying to say "Word", or if the original said "Word", and they just did not understand what that meant... or rather WHO that means: Christ.


But most daughters in Christendom do think of the Bible (Torah and gospels), as the word of God - even though that book states who is the Word of God who was sent: Christ. So another daughter "Islam" is just carrying on in her mother's errors.

It is all a lot more clear, understanding that she is yet another daughter.

Peace to you!
your servant and sister and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

HUGE difference between obey and submit tammy.
Ask any Muslim.

As for your pic.
Where was the denouncement?
Saying they are against terrorism is NOT denouncing terrorist.
Did you read about the raids in Paris on those mosques where they found weapons and terrorist literature?
Where was the denouncing of the people there?

As my colleague that left Islam said:
It is a religion of violence, it condones and fosters violence.
When I asked him for proof, he showed me this:

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Those are 3 different translations of the same verse.
One of the passage used by the extremists to justify beheading .


Remember Tammy, history has taught us that this is nothing new ( Islamic expansion via military conflict and yes, terrorism is a military conflict), Islam has been doing this for centuries.

Speaking of which:
http://www.charismanews.com/world/52438 ... d-beheaded
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/02/251741-isis-terrorists/


Here is the reality that we have:
Islam has actively persecuted Christians for centuries and no, that doesn't make the news either.
Islam has actively expanded it's empire for centuries, slowly but surely.
Islam has targeted ALL people that are "not with them" to disguise their DIRECT war against Christians ( this has been pointed out repeatedly over the last couple of decades but that doesn't get the press either).
Moderates denounce ACTS of terrorism out of self preservation and self interest OUTSIDE of Islam but inside, nothing and, according to them, they are the MAJORITY of Islam.

Are there good muslims? OF COURSE
That isn't the issue at all ( I am sure there were some good nazis too).

The issue is that the people that CAN fix this problem are not doing enough to fix it and if they don't, others will.

EX:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35151967?SThisFB

A great story, even if:


Here is the reality again:

There MUST be repercussions for the lack of action on the part of moderate muslims that are allowing the extremists to create a situation that WILL lead to dire consequences for ALL muslims because without them ( repercussions) the moderates do nothing, they won't even condemn the actions of the extremists.

As one historian put it:
The jihad didn't really stop, it just ran out of money around the early 1600s. And so it was put on ice for about 300 years.

It wasn't until the discovery of oil in the middle-east that jihad has returned almost to it's former glory as a dire threat to the west. Except this is the 21st century: frontlines are history. The real battles of today are fought in the hearts and minds of people, and the war is for the soul of the West.

But I am asking you.



Did you read the article, Paul? The pic shows up automatically on this forum, but it was the article that held all the information. Yes, they are denouncing both the acts and the terrorist group. They are saying that this is NOT Islam. Read the article and you will see that.



Oh, no doubt.

Of course, these verses are contradicted by the verses that state that they are not to harm unbelievers. But rather that they are to bear with them, and God will judge it all. So it all depends upon what man chooses to listen to. Same as within other religions.

But that is the point. Many of these people are listening to their religious leaders... and following whatever those religious leaders emphasize; perhaps in complete and total ignorance as to what is actually said in the Quran, itself.

[/quote]

Is that much different from "Christian" expansionism, including military expansionism, as well as British interference in India and the Middle East? Or the "Christian" takeover of the native americans, aboriginal peoples, etc?


Islam is not doing much different than the daughter it came out of.

Gonna stop there for just a moment, then get back to the rest after.


Peace to you,
your servant and sister, and a slave of Christ,
tammy

To Obey is to follow rule and regulations ( the 600+ Laws of the OT for example).
To submit is to consciously yield your will to another.

Both can and many times are done by force.

Choosing is far superiour.





Yes I read and have read other articles like that one, even spoken to people that are part of similar groups here in Ontario.
Their "denouncement" is very lacklustre to say the least and the media is far more on their side then against them tammy, or have you forgotten the millions on refugees that countries are being guilted into accepting because of the media?





Except that in Islam, it is the leaders that guide and interpret the Quran and no, there are no contradictions per say. The Quran is not like our bible in how it is set up and read.
Everything is contextual and passage that says that killing is not preferable to giving life does NOT supersede a direct statement that it is acceptable to kill an non-believer.



You will be hard pressed to find in the NT explicit commandments to kill non-believers.
You do find that in the Quran.

The difference is that Islam advocates terrorism and killing because of what is written in the Quran.
When killing and persecutions happen by Christians it is IN SPITE of what is written in the NT.





No, not daughter.
Fallen Son is more correct.


I am not here to convince you of anything Tammy, you are a big girl and you can find out things for yourself.
I am just stating that there IS a BIG problem in Islam, has been for a very long time and if they ( moderate muslims) don't fix it.
Others will.
Have you read what is happening in Europe?

I have to agree with dear Tams, here, dear P (peace to you, both!), and your response kind of proves my (and her) point. For example (and although these are not your words but a quote):



The statement refers to "the God of"... Moses and Mohammed. Then it refers directly to Christ, rather than to "the God of" Christ (which is something "christians" propagandists do all the time: slant things in their favor - here, that Christ is "the God"... which is untrue). Why do that, though, when we CAN say "the God of Christ"... as the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JaHVeH, who was and is Christ's Father AND God (John 8:54, 55)... but who is NOT as the scribes often portrayed Him in the OT (which is why Christ said he came "to bear witness to the TRUTH" about God)... DID put a choice before Israel:

"Then Moses went up to God, and JaHVeH called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

And the people made a choice:

"So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words JaHVeH had commanded him to speak. The people all responded together, “We will do everything JaHVeH has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to JaHVeH. (Exodus 19:3-8)

They didn't HAVE to agree... but they wanted the protection... and PROSPERITY... that JAH offered. So, they said "yes."

Christ offered a choice, as well, yes... but the choice ALSO included obedience:

Matthew 28:20
Luke 11:28
John 8:51; 14:23, 24; 15:20

It ALSO included submission, if Paul, Lazarus, and the Apostle James are to be believed:

Ephesians 5:24
Hebrews 12:9
James 4:7

My point is, why make the distinction, as if the God of the Jews only requested obedience WITHOUT a choice... or that Christ did NOT make obedience and submission a choice... when that is not the TRUTH?



As can be "choices," depending on the variable. But that force is not done by God... or "Allah"... or Christ... or "Jehovah"... or whomever. That force is propounded by MEN... who USE "God" (regardless of what they call Him) as the "weapon." And Muslims are not the first to do this, not by a long shot. As dear Tams shared, what of all the force used by "christians" for... how long now? Close to two millenia?

You posted some pretty thought-provoking images. But what about:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... t22lhn.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... yolh4y.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... rtqoph.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... 27mrfv.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... tnu0pb.jpg

What about... "christian" persecution of Jews over the centuries...

http://www.ushmm.org/research/the-cente ... -centuries

... and particularly during the first part of the last century...

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... 9decg4.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... lfklbj.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... oj2sf4.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... dsrmcv.jpg

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... ejoi3y.jpg


... - were not Nazis simply radicalized "christians"??? (Notice how they wickedly misapply our Lord's words as to another, used in a parable, as applying to himself!)

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... auhitw.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005206

What about the 30 year's War between European Catholics and Protestants between 1618 and 1648? The American slave trade (and post-Reconstruction lynchings)? Christian "terrorism" (https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism)?

I dunno, maybe we're supposed to pretend like these "christian" atrocities didn't occur because (1) they were more than, say, 20 years ago... and (2), most importantly... we don't have color images of them - all we have are old lithographic prints and black and white photos, neither of which can truly be trusted to portray the truth, accurate accounts of the events. Right?

Dear brother, what dear Tams is trying to help you "see"... is the danger of the "christian" hypocrisy. Murder is murder. Terrorism is terrorism. Thugs are thugs. And ALL religions have these evils... just as they all have people who do NOT subscribe to them.

Regarding the pic dear Tams posted, you ask:



Dear, dear brother... how long have the modern Muslim terrorists been at work? Maybe around 20-30 years. I'll give you 100, though. 200 even. But answer me this: where was the "christian" denunciation of (1) African slavery, and (2) the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Native Americans in the conquest of the "New World"... BY "christians"? The first last for more than 240 years (from 1619 to 1866), with the The second, more than 400 years (from 1492 to 1898)! And look at how most of BOTH... African-American and Native Americans... exist and live NOW!).

And what did "christians" do about it during those years? How many openly denounced either of these heinous travesties of human rights and justice... and the NUMEROUS murders that accompanied? Was it not "christianity" that actually FOMENTED both of these?

We're not saying either of these, radical Muslims or radical "christians" are right - we're saying take care as to your (possible) hypocrisy. Because you truly cannot condemn one group... without condemning the other. Because both have engaged in these awful activities. We might not have such a beef as to those which occurred long before our lifetime... and take issue with only that occur during... but the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, isn't bound by dates and seasons, dear one. "One day is as a thousand years to HIM," and just as the outcry of ABEL's blood was heard by Him... so, too the outcry of blood unrighteously spilled in every way, manner, and conflict SINCE Abel.

Including that spilled by so-called "christians." Which is quite a lot. AND... absolutely includes some who were literally Abraham's seed.

Please, try to look at these things as JAH and Christ would: in TRUTH... and not from some misplaced loyalty to a system that would kill YOU, if the law allowed and you went against it loud enough.

As always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

May you all have peace -

First, please know that I am NOT a proponent of what radical Muslims are doing throughout the world. In the same vein, however, I am not a proponent of what "radical" others do, either. Including radical "christians." As you all (may) know, truth is VERY important to me, so much so I sought (found... and was found BY, praise JAH!)... THE Truth: Christ (John 14:6). As you (may) also know, he is the One I listen to so as to KNOW truth... and such has occurred with what I will share with you now.

In one of his posts above, our dear brother PSacto (peace to you, dear, dear brother, and to your household!), posted a very graphic pic of certain men... "christians"... about to be executed by Muslim radicals. A TERRIBLE tragedy, absolutely NO doubt. What I am to point out to you, though, is the SYMBOLISM of that event, the "reasoning," albeit NOT justified and so NOT righteous... but maybe understandable, from a human POV. Here is the pic (hopefully smaller, as I am not reposting it for the shock value):

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... cignif.jpg

I was pondering this pic this morning and my Lord said to me:

"You understand the significance of the men being executed, do you not, child?"

To which I responded that I did not.

He then said, "Look at their garments. Have you not seen such garments before?"

And in thinking about it, I realized I have - California jails and new prison inmates wear orange jump suits just like these (indeed, "Orange is the New Black," right?).

He then asked me, "Do you understand why these are wearing such garments?"

I thought about the garments, their color and where I had seen them before (news pics of US criminals)... and before I could respond, I heard the words "Abu Ghraib" and "Guatanamo." And then... I understood:

These "christians" were PURPOSEDLY dressed just like... and executed in retaliation FOR... those Muslims killed in "christian" prisons!! Let me show you:

Abu-Ghraib:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... oamjpy.jpg

Guantanamo Bay:

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... mg02fl.jpg

(Just in case folks think those pics are "not so bad," well... there are more: http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=8560)

His point was NOT to condone what had occurred with the execution of these "christians." It was, however, to let me know the TRUTH: that these "christians" were SYMBOLICALLY killed... as a "recompense" for the men killed at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo... men... who [were made to wear] orange jump suits. Men... who these Muslim executioners considered to be [some kind of] a threat... although [considered] innocent by their fellow "christians." JUST as the men killed in Abu Ghraib and Guatanamo were considered to be [some kind of] a threat... although [considered] innocent by their fellow Muslims. They were killing in retaliation for those of them... many of whom [the US NOW knows] were innocent. Most of whom were the brothers, cousins, friends, son, fathers, uncles, brothers in law of... or otherwise known by... the executioners.

US law, there is something called the "Clean Hands" Doctrine. To summarize, a person who has acted wrongly, either morally or legally - whose OWN hands are not clean - will not be helped by a court when complaining about the actions of someone else.

This doctrine, dear ones, is the same one held up by the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and why our dear Lord brought it to my attention this morning. It is... hypocrisy... and the "christian" world is just as much guilty of it as the (radical) Muslim world. Because, as dear PSacto asked above... where was the overwhelming denouncement FROM "christians" of these horrendous BY "christians" at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo... and gawd knows where else (because we surely don't)? To the utter shame of "christians", there were more atheists and agnostics who bemoaned the atrocities of what occurred in these prisons... and elsewhere... than those who claim to believe in "Jesus."

Again, not apologizing for radical Muslim behavior. Not trying to water down what such do. BUT... in the interest of TRUTH, and as one who not only seeks truth but love THE Truth, that is Christ, so that deceit and hypocrisy are things I strive greatly to overcome... I had to share THIS particular truth with you.

There are no "clean hands" among those who condone EITHER side of this matter. The "hands" of BOTH are unclean and, hence, NEITHER are heard... or guarded... by the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... or can claim to belong to Him, He the God of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Moses... or Christ.

I, SA, have shared this with you just as I received it from and was directed to do so by my dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). May those with ears to hear, hear... and get the SENSE of these truths. May those who don't yet have ears... but wish them... be granted them so as to hear when that Spirit and his Bride say to THEM:

"COME! TAKE Life's (Christ's) water... the holy spirit of God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which water is His life, breath, blood, and seed and is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and King, the HOLY One of Israel and HOLY Spirit... JAHESHUA, the CHOSEN One of JAH (MischaJAH)... FREE!"

Peace to you and to your households!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and ALL those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

Those people were not symbolically killed as retaliation for anything OTHER than being Christian since that is what their killers ACTUALLY said.

Yes, there was MUCH condemnation about the atrocities committed in those prisons against muslims and, as a matter of fact, the reason they "stopped" was because of christian pressure, something the press seemed to have decided not to mention.

I know you hearts are in the right places but on this we are not on the same boat.
I know the element in Islam that desires the death of all christian NOT because what we may have done but simply because we are Christians and let us never forget that THEY ( Islam) started this war 1400 years ago and it only stopped when they "ran out of money" ( something that oil fixed)
By the way Shel, Muslim terrorists has been around since the first "Hassahan" Assassins in the 11th century.

Having read some of the ISIS propaganda against the west I realized and spoken to many that have left Islam because of the every growing extremists elements, I have reluctantly come to realize that this problem will not go away, especially since they view moderates and tolerance and trying to negotiate as signs of weakness.

I wish that it was not the case, but it certainly seems to be.

There is much more anti-christian propaganda in the press than there is anti-muslim, I know it may not seem that way here, but it is the case in Europe ( though that seems to be changing as europe is finally seeing the result of allowing radical islam to run free).

I really wish I could agree with you both on this but history and personal experience tells me different.

You missed the point, dear P (peace to you, luv!): HOW they were DRESSED... WHEN they were killed... was symbolic. Also, I promise you: they didn't need to be "christians" but only from the "west." Radical Muslims kill Muslims, too. Just like radical "christians" kill christians.

EVEN SO... I only shared what I received...



Is it possible... JUST possible... that the press has "decided not to mention" [some of] the Muslim denunciation of what THEIR fanatic factions are doing? Just a thought...



Totally understand... and I think that's the other point. Again, I only shared what I received. I personally have no idea - no knowledge... and really don't care (probably as much as some might think I should - I subscribe to the truth that nothing is by accident and what is going to occur... is going to occur). I can't perceive a TRUE christian believing otherwise...



I do NOT dispute this truth, dear one. I'm only saying there are elements in "christianity" as well, as well as a plethora of other "beliefs", that desires the death of all Muslims... Jews... Hindus... women... gays... blacks... mexicans... homeless...



And yet, "we" consider some of "them" our "friends" and "allies". "THEY", dear one, does not include ALL of "them"... any more than "WE" include all "christians." Do you SEE?



And "christian" terrorists? Jewish terrorists? How long have they been around? Those who belong to Christ don't ascribe to ANY of these institutions or their factions, dear P. WE... "are NO part of the world." Not even the "christian" part. Because IT'S hands are dirty, too.



It's not going to go away... because the Plan is not for them to do so. Any more than it was for Judas to not do what HE did. Do you SEE? Thing is, Christ didn't take issue with Judas... or malign him to the others. He knew that JAH's plan was going to play out, was far more important that his own "will"... and so put his trust in the Father's hands. Not in man's.



I am not and have not disputed with the radical Muslim faction in this world is doing, has done... or yet will do, dear P. I think I stated that. What I am TRYING to do is help those with ears to hear... and perhaps eyes to see... that WE cannot get caught up in taking sides here. It would be hypocritical. ALL of these (religions) have unclean hands. The radicals... as well as the institutions that foment them. As well as anyone who is "TOUCHING" them.


And, given the rise of atheism, there will be a lot more. BUT... "christians" CANNOT belie that they brought MUCH of the negative propaganda upon themselves. At least, their institutional histories have. And since they want to lie in bed with those institutional harlots, well... you know what they say about getting fleas. In these cases, however, more like catching crabs.



Again, it will increase here, as well. You seem to have forgotten what "must occur"... and WHY... before our dear Lord returns.



I understand. I also understand that we are to walk by FAITH (in Christ and in what HE says)... and not by sight (based on what we [think] we see "going on"). But I can only remind you of that - I can't make you live it, luv.

The heart as well as the eyes can deceive us, dear, dear P. Best, at least for one claiming to belong to Christ, to follow HIM. Wherever HE goes. And sometimes, the path of Truth isn't what we thought it was... or want it to be.

Walk in faith, dear brother. Don't let your eyes fool you into thinking what you see "going on" is ALL that is "going on." Much more "behind" the scenes, I promise you.

As always, the greatest of love and peace to you... and to your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel