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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:34 pm 
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Ran across this and thought the consequential result to the family's faith might be of interest to some here:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-papa ... ailsignout

Possibly a double tragedy, albeit not the loss of faith in the "Church."

Just sayin'.

Peace to you, all!

A slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:04 am 
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That is a great article but so very sad. Those people were extremely devout Catholics until they saw the hypocrisy first hand. Another tragic abuse in the name of religion. This article is a MUST read!!

Has anyone seen the TV series Ray Donovan?? I am loving it and the case above reminds me a bit of this show. Ray Donovan and his brother were sexually abused by a priest who befriended the family and took the boys under his wings because the Father was a Thug and rarely home. The show is about so much more than that but there is several episodes that show the cover up and that the priest was still around being a priest abusing other boys years later even though the youngest Donovan boy got a settlement for the abuse. All the children were messed up because of the abuse of the Priest and the Father of the family.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:37 am 
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I just started watching it Zoe. Hubby has been watching it for the last week. I was sad watching the one brother still want to turn to Christ, but that being all messed up with the pain that the RCC has caused him and his family. So you can't think of Christ and God without also thinking of the pain; the two become associated. That is exactly what the RCC and other religions have done by causing so much pain to innocents and betraying them on top of the wrong done to them by not protecting others. Then they have to find ways of dealing with that torment. Money cannot erase what was done, and in fact, accepting the money might make it feel worse for some of them. Like that somehow makes amends. It does not.

Although the show is fiction, this is a reality for many people, as the article shows.


Peace to you both,
your servant and sister, and a slave of Christ,
tammy


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:14 pm 
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Organized religion is one of the most horrific things.
See, religion is simply:
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies...

ANY belief that a person has about God, for example, is a religious belief.

The problem has never been religion per say ( unless it is a religion that openly advocates bad things like killing), but the abuse that happens when a group of people of the same views decide to IMPOSE HOW those views are practiced on OTHERS.
When religion becomes organized in that fashion it breeds vanity and greed and intolerance and eventually hate.

I am a catholic in the true sense of the word:
A catholic is one that believes there is ONE universal church.
The word catholic literally means "universal," as in "the universal church." It originally was applied to all Christians because we are all part of the universal church in the way that we are all members of the Body of Christ.

I am not a Roman Catholic because of many issues I have but primarily because the RCC hierarchy views itself as higher than the "laity".
It goes against the direct teachings of Christ in many regards ( like the use of the term "father" for the priests, sacraments that have no biblical standing and so forth).
I dislike organized religion because it takes all that is good about religion and perverts it, in short it lives by the "end justifies the means" when true faith is all about "the means justify the end".

I don't expect anyone to be perfect and I expect to see mistakes and bad things happen wherever humans are present ( the body of Christ is a hospital for sinners, not a museum of saints) what I DO EXPECT is that people will behave correctly and with justice when they are caught doing what is wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:42 pm 
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Organized religion is one of the most horrific things.

Greeting to you all and peace to you today,

Well with this part my brother PaulS I must agree and I will add that I am in agreement to Rutherfords quote in the beginning days of the WTBS that...

" RELIGION IS A RACKET AND A SNARE!" ( if only they would have truly listened and obeyed to what they were saying out of their own mouths)

One of the beautiful aspects of our Lord is that Christ is NOT a religion. Belonging to Him frees us from the slavery and bondage and hate and judgment and mercilessness and hypocritical ways OF religion.

With is why He is so refreshing with His invitation to " COME, take lifeswater, (which from Him we will never thirst for anything man promotes ever again) FREE!"

Love, your sister and fellow servant of our Lord Jaheshua MischaJah, the one who dispenses this true spirit and no ones else, Kim! /:)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:16 pm 
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religion is simply:
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies...

I am not sure that is correct, dear P (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear brother!). I mean, I know that that is what some/many SAY it is, and so others BELIEVE it is, but a look at the word etymology ('cause remember, I've shared with you dear ones, that words are IMPORTANT and so understand where/what a word derives from is important!) seems to show it's not that simple at all.

The most common (and primariy accepted) etymology is:

Quote:
re·li·gion
Origin

Middle English (originally in the sense ‘life under monastic vows’): from Old French, or from Latin religio(n-) ‘obligation, bond, reverence,’ perhaps based on Latin religare ‘to bind.’


To bind... or perhaps enslave? Sure seems like it. But there is reported to be other origins and meanings, too. The following link contains some very interesting information:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3087765?seq ... b_contents

Unfortunately, its media format won't let me cut and paste statements of interest, but it is VERY interesting reading, particularly the author's conclusion in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs on Page 128. The author, Sarah F. Hoyt was apparently a student at the Johns Hopkins University Seminary, so I tend to put faith in her research.

Words are important, luv, and so it is imperative, given how much of what people put their faith in is WRITTEN... and the false stylus/hypocrisy of the secretaries/scribes, that we know the origin of the WRITTEN word whenever we possible can. To just say a word "simply means," might put us in a position of teaching some against Christ. Because he did NOT bind, but set FREE. And he did NOT teach strict observance, but taught MERCY and forgiveness.

Research the WORD, luv, and don't just take as truth what some might say it means.

As always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:23 pm 
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Since we're on the topic of words (peace to you all!), anyone know the ORIGIN of the word "pontiff"? I'll tell you, when dear hubby and I learned it, our jaws fell open. The following are fairly easy reads, which might still make one's mouth fall open, but there's more detailed info out there that might make your whole face hit the floor.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiff

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Pontiffs

Regardless, bottom line is that there is NO way... ON EARTH... that Christ would name/appoint someone who represented HIM as (a) "Pontiff." Absolutely NO way. Not in light of the Roman occupation... and executions... including his... of HIS day in the flesh.

Words, dear ones. Small... but mighty (important).

Peace to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:09 pm 
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The English term derives through Old French pontif[3][4] from Latin pontifex, a word commonly held to come from the Latin root words pons (bridge) + facere (to do, to make), and so to have the literal meaning of "bridge-builder". This may be only a folk etymology,[1] but it may also recall antique tasks and magic rites associated with bridges.


The college consisted of the Pontifex Maximus and the other pontifices, the Rex Sacrorum, the fifteen flamens, and the Vestals.[1] The College of Pontiffs was one of the four major priestly colleges, the others being of the augurs (who read omens), the quindecimviri sacris faciundis ("fifteen men who carry out the rites"), and the Epulones (who set up feasts at festivals).


Greetings to you ALL and peace to you Shelby my sister...

The phrase that comes to my mind is... " Magic-Practicing priests.


And I am understanding this correctly that there was a time when women ( the Vestal virgins) could be priests? Just asking cuz of all the issues now with Pope Francis still NOT allowing women to be priests.

Peace and love, your sister in Christ, Kim


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:14 pm 
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On topic with the opening thread...


Read about this young mans story. ( I guess this dates back to 2011) So sad but it is truly happening everywhere. Tragedies resulting from another daughter of Babylon. But some of the language sounded so familiar with WTBS in describing the LDS.

It is heartbreaking but this is (so- called) Christianity today. Which is why this word should NOT be used so freely. It misleads and it is NOT Christ.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/30/us/warren ... index.html

Peace to you all, love your sister and fellow servant of Christ, Kim.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 pm 
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i am sending some average folk here
to find out who is Candace Conti
and how was she able to effectively defeat
the Watchtower in court
for covering up child abuse.
What losses and exposed weaknesses by the WTBTS
could we tell these average folk?
Please, if you can,
provide links to sources
such as past threads here
or direct links to documentation.

Was it absolute zero punitive damages for the WTBTS after the appeal?
Did the judges still acknowledge in writing
some non-financial liability (perhaps just on principle)
by the WTBTS for covering up Kendrick's past?
Where was the monetary award to Candace to come from,
just Kendrick personally and the Fremont congregation?
Did they say (as a reason for zero punitive) something about
how inconvenient it would be for the WTBTS
to enforce tracking of sex offenders?
Did anyone retort with how inconvenient it is
to confiscate every nail clipper and hair gel at the airport
yet north american society accepts it as a necessary inconvenience
(like shaving and wearing a tie and deodorant to meetings
and tracking placements then filling out monthly field service reports)
or did Candace's lawyers accept the appeal results as final
or was the time limit too small to allow brainstorming
ways to challenge the appeal?
Is it New Zealand that requires government issued cards be worn
by door to door canvassers, and do the cards reveal sex offender status?

if such questions could be answered by anyone and everyone
using this one thread
it would be very much appreciated
thanks in advance
(and i'm willing to bribe everyone with free cookies
or TwoForOne coupons to Heaven --- the local donut shop)

_________________
"For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law . . . They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts" (Romans 2:14-15)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:58 pm 
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The following might help, dear Wheels (peace to you!). Note, the underlining is mine, to help folks see what the decision was and was based on:

Quote:
Court Partially Reverses Judgment in Church Molestation Suit
Panel Says Jehovah’s Witnesses Had No Duty to Warn Congregants, but Should Have Kept Known Molester Away From Children

By KENNETH OFGANG, Staff Writer


Church elders who knew that a member had molested his stepdaughter had no duty to warn the congregation, but did have a duty to supervise the member’s subsequent participation in the church’s field activities, the First District Court of Appeal has ruled.

Div. Three Monday upheld the award of nearly $2.9 million in compensatory damages against officials of Jehovah’s Witnesses, holding them responsible for Jonathan Kendrick’s abuse of Candace Conti from 1994 to 1996, when she was between the ages of nine and 11 years old.

The court said the congregation to which Kendrick and Conti’s family belonged, and its parent organization, were liable because the two were allowed to do “field service”—going door-to-door to spread the church’s beliefs—together even though the elders knew that Kendrick had previously molested his 14-year-old stepdaughter.

No Punitive Damages

The panel, however, overturned an award of more than $8.6 million in punitive damages against the parent organization, because it was based solely on the untenable theory that the church had a duty to warn Conti’s parents and other members that Kendrick was a child molester.

Conti, who left the church as an adult, testified that Kendrick abused her several times a month. In an interview with “ABC Nightline,” she said she told church elders of the abuse, but they refused to act because she did not have two witnesses to the molestation.

The television program reported that about two dozen others who claim to have been abused as children by fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses have brought suits since Conti won her verdict.

According to the trial evidence, Michael Clarke, an elder of the North Fremont congregation where Kendrick’s and Conti’s families belonged, was told in November 1993 of an incident four months earlier where Kendrick had touched his stepdaughter’s breast. He and another elder, Gary Abrahamson, went to the family home and discussed the matter with Kendrick, his then-wife, and the daughter.

The elders testified that Kendrick told them the touching was “inadvertent,” but that they didn’t believe him. They said they neither encouraged nor discouraged the victim and her mother with regard to whether to call police, contrary to the ex-wife’s testimony that she was told to keep the incident private.

Clarke said he wrote a letter to the parent organization, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York, Inc., reporting on the meeting. A heavily redacted version of that letter was introduced at trial.

Removed From Position

In the unredacted portion, Clarke said the elders were going to remove Kendrick from the role of “ministerial servant,” meaning he would no longer be allowed to perform administrative functions such as distributing literature to members. Clarke testified that congregation members were told that Kendrick was no longer a ministerial servant, but were not told why he was removed.

The defense also presented testimony that under church policy, a known child molester may engage in field service, but not with a child.

Conti’s lawyers introduced a 1989 letter from the Watchtower society to all elders in the United States. It said that elders must “give special heed” to the biblical warning not to “reveal the confidential talk of another,” in order to avoid “serious legal problems for the individual, the congregation, and even the Society.”

It also warned that “[w]ordly persons are quick to resort to lawsuits if they feel their ‘rights’ have been violated” and that the church’s adversaries “readily take advantage of any legal provisions to interfere with it or impede its progress.” In cases of child abuse, elders were told to protect victims “from further danger” and to contact the society’s lawyers “immediately,” while “protecting” written material, avoiding “nauthorized disclosure,” and maintaining confidentiality.

Friend of the Family

Conti testified that Kendrick befriended her father and became a regular visitor to their home. During that period, he repeatedly drove her to his home after meetings or during field service, and molested her, he testified.

Some congregants, however, said they never saw Kendrick and Conti doing field service together, or leaving church together for that purpose, and did not see Kendrick hugging Conti or having her sit on his lap at church. Conti and one other congregant testified otherwise.

Conti initially sued Kendrick, the congregation, and the society. Kendrick—who told “Nightline” that he was never alone with Conti and never behaved inappropriately with her—settled by agreeing not to defend himself at trial or harass Conti or her witnesses, in exchange for a covenant not to execute any judgment against him. Journalists were able to locate Kendrick because he is a registered sex offender, having been convicted of a misdemeanor in connection with the touching of his stepdaughter and then convicted in 2004 of molesting his current wife’s 7-year-old granddaughter, according to sources.
[u]Jurors found Kendrick liable for molestation, and the congregation and society liable for both failure to warn and failure to supervise. They found Kendrick 60 percent responsible, and awarded $7 million in compensatory damages and $21 million in punitive damages, reportedly the largest verdict for a single plaintiff in a church sexual abuse case up to that time
.

Of the compensatory damages, $130,000 were economic damages for which all defendants were responsible. Of the $6.87 million in non-economic damages, 60 percent were allocated to Kendrick, 27 percent to the society, and 13 percent to the congregation. The punitive damages were allocated entirely to the society, but Alameda Superior Court Judge Robert McGuiness reduced the award to $8.61 million.

Justice Peter Siggins, however, writing for the Court of Appeal, said there was no basis for a plaintiff’s verdict for failure to warn, and therefore no basis to assess punitive damages on that claim.

While neither the privilege for penitential communications nor the mandatory reporting laws applied in this case, the jurist explained, the public policy underlying those laws “militates strongly against imposition of the duty claimed here to inform congregations of such communications.”

When the “clergy-penitent” privilege was codified, the justice noted, the California Law Revision Commission commented that the decision to reveal or keep confidential such communications was “better left to the discretion of the individual clergyman involved and the discipline of the religious body of which he is a member” than become the subject of legislation.

“Courts should likewise be wary to intrude in this realm,” Siggins wrote.

With regard to failure to supervise Kendrick’s field service, however, the jury verdict must be sustained because there was substantial evidence that the elders failed to carry out the society’s stated policy of barring molesters from being with children.

“Conti described how Kendrick would separate her from field service groups, take her to his home, molest her, and then take her back to Kingdom Hall or the service group,” Siggins explained. “The jury could find from this evidence that the elders were negligent in failing to supervise Kendrick’s field service.”
Imposing a duty to supervise under circumstances like those of this case, he went on to write, is appropriate given the foreseeability of the molester reoffending, the heightened risk when the molester is alone with a child, the reasonableness of the burden imposed, and the policy in favor of imposing liability as a way of preventing future harm.

The case is Conti v Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York, Inc., 15 S.O.S. 1869.


http://www.metnews.com/articles/2015/jeho041515.htm

Here is the actual decision:

https://jwleaks.files.wordpress.com/201 ... 136641.pdf


From reading both, turns out that the $21 million punitives were first reduced to $8.61 million and then that was thrown out due to the California Law Revision Commission's comments, when codifying the “clergy-penitent” privilege," that "the decision to reveal or keep confidential such communications was “better left to the discretion of the individual clergyman involved and the discipline of the religious body of which he is a member” than become the subject of legislation." In other words, it's up to the clergyman and his religion/religious leaders.

So, that kind of seals it for ME, that the WTBTS is in fact a religion and cannot say they aren't, else they can't rely on this defense. They did, though, and so got off as to having to pay punitives, on that technicality.


They did not get off on the damages as while they may not have had a duty to reveal what had happened to Conti/others, they DID have a duty to keep her safe in field service and so, absent telling her parents the dangers, should have been diligent in making sure Kendrick didn't work in FS with ANY children. As a result, the final award was:

$7 million in damages, broken down as:

1. $130,000 in economic damages (split between 3 defendants, so $43,333.33 each for Kendrick, the Congo, and the WTBTS); and
2. $6.87 million in non-economic damages (60% or $4,122,000 from Kendrick, 27% or $1,854,900 to the WTBTS, and 13% or $893,100 to the Congo)

Anyone think the WTBTS gonna help the poor folks of that Congo with their share (cause where in the world will THEY get it!), though? I would wager not. At least, not without taking their KH as "collateral." They'll either have to sell the land or take out a mortgage, which the poor publishers will have to pay through increased "donations." In which light, many will probably leave the Congo (if they haven't already, just as a result of the entire fiasco), and so we're back to a sale of the land/building. BUT... can they do THAT without paying the WTBTS off first? Highly doubt it.

I would not be one bit surprised if the WTBTS forces them to sell, rather than bail them out because of THEIR poor directive. Not one bit surprised.

Anyway, I hope this provides some easy to understand insight for your guests, dear Wheels.

As always, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:15 pm 
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Just in case the above is NOT clear, though (peace to you, again, dear one!):

Quote:
Was it absolute zero punitive damages for the WTBTS after the appeal?


Yes.

Quote:
Did the judges still acknowledge in writing
some non-financial liability (perhaps just on principle)
by the WTBTS for covering up Kendrick's past?


They acknowledged the WTBTS' duty to protect Conti/children while in FS and on this basis charged them with $1.85 million of the $7 million in damages.

Quote:
Where was the monetary award to Candace to come from,
just Kendrick personally and the Fremont congregation?


$130,000 equally split between Kendrick, the Fremont Congo, and the WTBTS, then $6.87 million split 60% from Kendrick, 27% from the WTBTS, and 13% from the Fremont Congo.

Quote:
Did they say (as a reason for zero punitive) something about
how inconvenient it would be for the WTBTS
to enforce tracking of sex offenders?


No, I didn't read that. Justice Siggins said that when the “clergy-penitent” privilege was codified, the California Law Revision Commission commented that the decision to reveal or keep confidential such communications was “better left to the discretion of the individual clergyman involved and the discipline of the religious body of which he is a member” than become the subject of legislation."

Quote:
Did anyone retort with how inconvenient it is
to confiscate every nail clipper and hair gel at the airport
yet north american society accepts it as a necessary inconvenience
(like shaving and wearing a tie and deodorant to meetings
and tracking placements then filling out monthly field service reports)


Not that I read; however, court decisions usually only include the comments of the jurists.

Quote:
or did Candace's lawyers accept the appeal results as final
or was the time limit too small to allow brainstorming
ways to challenge the appeal?


Now that, I don't know. They may still appeal; however, I can't see why, given the comments of the California Law Revision Commission when codifying the “clergy-penitent” privilege. I mean, if their position was that "the decision to reveal or keep confidential such communications was 'better left to the discretion of the individual clergyman involved and the discipline of the religious body of which he is a member' than become the subject of legislation," I can't see what's left to argue. That's just my learned response, though; a barred appeal lawyer might disagree.

Quote:
Is it New Zealand that requires government issued cards be worn
by door to door canvassers


I think a lot of places require them (didn't Mexico, which was the jist of the issues some years ago, prompting the WTBTS to declare itself a religion there?).

Quote:
and do the cards reveal sex offender status?


Not sure as they serve a different purpose. In some places, however, including some U.S. States, sex offenders are required to carry Sex Offender ID cards. I think they can carry them in their wallets, though, so one still might not know when a sex offender knocks at the door.

I hope this helps (make it clearer, if necessary).

Peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:12 pm 
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Thank you very much for all that, Shelby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i hope you don't mind if it's a tad bit more than "some" average folk.
They're scheduled to drop in late November
in one big clump
so i'm just prepping the landing zone.
i've given them a direct link to this exact page
plus found a few older threads here
that you all did a great job in.

thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
"For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law . . . They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts" (Romans 2:14-15)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:23 pm 
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Speaking for myself only, don't mind at all, dear Wheels (peace, m'dear!). The more the merrier (well, maybe - I mean, so long as no one wants to start "organizing" more is great. Cause y'know, "some" folks want to do that, "organize". But that's when I'm OUT - LOLOL!)

Please tell your friends they are more than welcome to visit and/or even stay, if they wish.

Peace!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:23 pm 
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I second that welcome for your friends, Wheels.

Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy


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