Hola, Paolo, hermano mio y la paz a ti! LOL!
Let's take the second one first, as it's quicker to respond to:
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IF the Woman in Revelation 12 is the "nation" of Israel from which Christ is born ( the 12 starts being the 12 tribes of Israel)
The Woman is not the "nation" of Israel, per se. She is the spirit realm (Jerusalem Above -
Galatians 4:26) from which Christ was born (
Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 12:5). She has the 12 tribes "in her crown", in the sense that they are HER glory. They are her GLORY, in that they are HER sons (in contrast to BTG's "daughters").
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then it is inline with John's writings that the woman of Babylon is also a nation, no?
While John does depict her as a "city", the NEW Jerusalem is depicted as a city, as well. And WE, those of Christ's Body, make up that [beloved] City, no? What you must understand, luv, is that all of these things depict PEOPLE. Not WHEREs... but WHOs. For instance, the "temple". Although depicted antitypically as a "temple"... it is actually people. I am sure you've seen where I've shared JAH = Most Holy/Holy of Holies; Christ = Holy; Spiritual Israel (144,000 + GC from every nation, etc.) = Courtyard of Priests; Fleshly Israel = Courtyard of Israel; Rahab-Like People/Sheep Separated from Goats (do good to Christ's brothers) = Courtyard of Women; Others who receive life (vs. judgment) but are not Abraham's seed = Courtyard of Gentiles, etc.
EVERYTHING that was ONCE fleshly/physical, is NOW... through CHRIST... spirit/spiritual. The Ark (the New Covenant), the Woman (the Spirit Realm), the Temple (God's people), etc.
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So Islam is NOT BTG BUT it is PART of it?
Yes, that makes sense.
I don't think I stated that, luv. To be a part of BTG, one would have had to have been in union with CHRIST. Have belonged to/claimed a marriage to him. Again, no Moslem will make that claim. While the recognize Christ as a prophet, they do NOT recognize him as the Son of God OR as their "husbandly" owner. BTG is an "adulteress" in that she commits fornication AGAINST her husband... Christ.
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I have to be honest though, the description of the fall of Babylon is so vivid that it certainly seems to imply a city/state rather than an abstract thing.
Before we look at that, does not the depiction of the New Jerusalem at
Revelation 21-22 seem to imply a city/state, as well? Even with roads and gates, a temple, etc.? Yet, "she" is not a physical city/state but a city/state made up of PEOPLE. As is BTG. But let's look at the account of BTG:
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Babylon Is Fallen
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.
What demons dwell in Iran/Iraq, dear one, more than in any other place on the earth? I don't know much about Iraq but I work with people from Iran, have worked with people from Iran... and from speaking with them the Iran THEY know isn't much different from the US I know. One just told me last week that, save the false media hype, the people of Iran are just like people everywhere else and just want the same things.
But now let's look at "christianity," and those who CLAIM to belong to/be in union with/married to Christ. Let's look at the misleading, the fleecing, the Inquisition, the Conquest, the taking of the New World, the conversion of American, Asian, African and other natives... and the methods. The crimes against other cultures, other races, other genders, other religions, other classes... all "in the name of God." By folks who, again, claim to be JOINED to God/Christ. Where did Christ do all of these things? Where did he direct the doing of any of them? Where did he sanction any one of them? How about the [hidden] pedophilia? Rape of women? Killing of innocent? Where is Christ in any of that?
Are not those things the works of DEMONS? They are, and so "she"... BTG... those who CLAIM to belong to Christ, in union with him... yet, agree to and do these things
with the help of the kings of the world... who give them the AUTHORITY to do it AND use their military might to carry such out... in turn for being "sanctified" (i.e., "blessed by God", as the religious leaders lyingly corroborate) so as to hold office, become rulers/leaders, etc., SHE has indeed because a dwelling place for demons! A prison/haunt for every
unclean spirit and hated flying thing!
Now, I realize Iran is villifying Israel, but vice versa, from what I can see. And at one time, the US villified Japan and Vietnam and the Soviet Union... and vice versa. And before that, the Anglo world had a HUGE problem with the Jewish world/culture. Are these "demons" any different? Under Hitler, Germany attempted to exterminate a large number of Jews... and in fact DID exterminate millions. Why is Iran/Iraq more "demonized" than Germany? And did Germany not "fall" for quite a time after its crimes? Why "see" Iran/Iraq in this when neither have done NOTHING against "Israel" to the extent German once did?
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3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”
SURELY, you can "see" religion in this depiction... far, far more than Iran/Iraq. How has the world drank the wine of the "passion of her immorality" of these two nations? In what way? And how have the merchants of the earth become rich by the wealth of her sensuality? Iran/Iraq have not seduced the world; the world wants what THEY have: oil. At a rock bottom price. And is willing to take it from them, even if it calls for war.
But religion... and particularly the part called "christianity/christendom", has been seducing the world from day one. False prophets, corrupt priests, false "anointed", etc. Whe world has not only drank... but become DRUNK... on the wine of the passion of religion's immorality. And most particularly, "christianity's" immorality. As I set forth some of those acts, above. How have the kings of the earth committed acts of adultery with Iran/Iraq, though? Do not those world governments that stand with Israel stand AGAINST (the governments of) Iran/Iraq today? How then, can they be in bed
together?
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4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
This is most telling: who, of God's people, are/would this apply to? Are we to think that christians in Iran/Iraq are to get out of those countries so as not the share in the "sins" (which are?) of those nations? But then, again, what of Germany? The U.S.? England? And their sins? How about Israel's (Jews) against Christians of the 1st century? Are they now clean from those acts?
BUT, if BTG was RELIGION... and particularly "christianity" (and Jews, because these claim to be God's people, at least the God whose revelation John SAW, given to him by Christ and presented by our Lord's angel)... then we can see "what" we are to get out OF, what "city" we are to flee FROM. Because there is a "city" we are to flee TO, is there not? "Zion", the NEW Jerusalem?
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6 Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. 7 To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning;
And take a look at Iran/Iraq and tell me where is the glorification and sensuous living? Most of the people are strict religionists, adhering tightly to out dated religious traditions, rituals, thinking, and expression. On the other hand, how about religion, and particularly "christianity"? Has that entity glorified itself? Does it live sensuously (and that has less to do with sense... than with SENSES: i.e., by SIGHT, versus by FAITH)?
And what are Iran's/Iraq's deeds? How about when compared to "christianity's" deeds? Again, the Inquisition, various Conquests, taking of the New World, the American slave trade, it's part in the Holocaust... and more.
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for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’
THIS, luv! How does Iran/Iraq say this? I can tell you how "christianity" does: by saying they are married to the KING... Christ... that he has NOT left them but is with them, when he is NOT... and that he is NOT dead (to them)... when he IS. Technically AND literally. Sure, they SAY he rose from the dead, but HAS he for them? If so, then why can't/doesn't he SPEAK to them? Why don't they know HIS voice? Why do they persecute those who say he DOES speak (to them and EVERYONE who belongs to him)... and ridicule/try to silence/kill such ones? Iran/Iraq hasn't done anything to me. But whoo-whee, let me approach one our world's great religious leaders with ANY of what I've shared with you dear ones... and you with us... and what do you think the outcome would be? What do you think the chances of even HAVING a conversation would be? Would any of them welcome any of us as brothers? Fellow servants? Would they LISTEN?
But we are not sent to Iran/Iraq, are we? To a people whose tongue we don't know and whose words are unintelligible. Because they speak of "Allah" and "Mohammed" and the Quran. "Christians," however, claim to know the same God and follow the same Christ as we. Yet, what, of the things we share, would be familiar to them? Sure, a few of those among them would get it... and then do what? COME OUT. Would ANY religious LEADER of "christianity" do so, however?
They, however, style themselves a queen, the bride of Christ, the King... and not a widow. Because they believe their "husband" is alive to them. But Christ is DEAD to them, and thus they ARE a widow. And they will see mourning... those who remain "in" her, rather than turning AROUND and coming to be "in" Christ. By means of being in HIS "city" - the NEW Jerusalem.
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8 For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
And so, it isn't against Iran/Iraq that the plagues will come, that pestilence, mourning, and famine will occur. It is against the adulterous religions of christianity that it will come. And we can see it already occurring. Already people are leaving. Initially, because they'd grown tired of the lies, hypocrisy, dishonesty, and corruption. Now... because of the filthy immorality. Of priests, elders, pastors, and even higher. And guess where some are GOING: Islam. Sadly. They are coming out this harlotous city, but only to flee to yet another (wrong) city.
Eventually, though, the kings of the earth who LOVED that harlot... who allowed her even the blood of the holy ones... will turn on her. And we can see THAT occurring, too. It started with taxation after the Jimmy Swaggert case. No longer can they make a killing profit by selling literature, artifacts, and other paraphernalia without paying taxes. They either pay taxes... or they must give it away free. Can't make any money doing that, though. Then... the sex scandals... thousands upon thousands of lives affected by that... and the millions being paid out for that. First, in Boston with the RCC, and then elsewhere for them. Then the LDS and similar issues there, with an actual criminal arrest. Now, the WTBTS, in the US, Australia, Europe...
And it's going to get worse. Because people are WAKING up to the crimes of religion, and not just Islamic jihad. They are waking up to "christian" corruption and great immorality, including but not necessarily limited to pedophilia. And they are eventually going to call for her end because of it. And even though they won't WANT to do it... because of their "relationships" with her... their governments will oblige and do what their people call for... and bring her to her end. JAH Himself is going to put it into the hearts of those kings to turn on her and do it.
And what will be their response, those kings? You quoted it:
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Lament for Babylon
9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
And what of the merchants who have gained THEIR wealth by means of her? And make no mistake: they do exist:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/rel ... ight_N.htmHere is how THEY respond:
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11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12 cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, 13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives. 14 The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, 16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls; 17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’
How would these... WHY would these... lament to such a degree over the demise of Iraq/Iran? If anything, the toppling of these two would bring even more wealth to these merchants, through oil and other resources they hold. But BTG's fall is something they are ASTONISHED over, lament.
However, another group is to REJOICE over her demise: those whose blood she DRANK:
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20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”
When, though, did Iran/Iraq drink the blood of the holy ones?? Of those who bore witness to JAHESHUA? Iran's issues is with Jews. When did/do Jews bear witness to Christ?? True, there are some Messianic Jews who claim a union with Christ. But what has Iran to do with them?? Is it not the Zionist Jews they deem enemies?
This final part, however, is most telling, particularly the part I've bolded and underlined:
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21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22 And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived[u] by your sorcery. 24 And [u]in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”
No, I don't think you can apply this depiction and description to Iran/Iraq, dear one. Even though they were once called "Babylon." THAT Babylon was destroyed... but that one was physical. THIS one will be destroyed, too. She, however, is spiritual. An antitype and metaphor for the people who CLAIM to belong to/be married to/in union with Christ... and so his "bride" and thus a queen... but are in fact adulterous harlots who fornicate with the kings of the physical realm so as to be rich and make them rich... EVEN at the cost of the blood of the holy ones.
"She" started with the Jews, who WERE in a covenant and thus marriage with God... but who fornicated with the kings of the nations around THEM... "Oholah" and "Oholibah"... and she "grew" to those "christians" who CLAIM to be in a covenant with and thus marriage to CHRIST... but who
commit the same dang fornication... with the kings of the nations around
THEM... rather than staying true to the ONE and [supposedly, to hear them tell it] ONLY husband and owner... and so the ONLY One whose Law is to be obeyed: JAHESHUA, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit. He the ONLY Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH, chosen specifically AS Israel's husband and they as his Bride.
This does not manifest in Iran/Iraq, dear, dear brother. I hope you can "see" that.
As always, peace to you and to your dear household!
YSSFS of Christ,
Shel