xjwsforChrist

I came across this story a while ago..
I thought it was a good example of how evolution works..



.........................................OUTLAW

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See, this is what chaps MY hide, dear Sher'f (peace to you and thank for posting this, luv!): regular, routine environmental adaptation being pushed as "modern day" evolution.

The thing is, the swallow is developing shorter wings merely so that it can ADAPT to the changes in its environment (cars). BUT... it is STILL A SWALLOW. Heck, it's still a BIRD. It isn't, say, developing gills so that is can also live in water! Nor are frogs developing wings so that they can fly away from the changes in THEIR environment (say, more crafty predators).

The tenet of "evolution" is NOT that a species merely adapts (which ALL species do, at some point, and most particularly the HUMAN species - look at how I'm communicating with you right now - not scratched with heavy sticks or stone on walls of stone left to be found millenia in the future, but words input into an electronic devise by just tapping my fingers on keys then sent across airwaves so that you receive them almost instantly, if not instantly, mostly because we've come to understand... wait for it... ELECTRICITY... and (some of) its powers)... but actually change, albeit over time, into OTHER "kinds". Not other species of the SAME "kind"... but other kinds altogether.

Which is ridiculous. Sorry, but I have say that. And the first "evidence" that we have OF that ridiculousness... is ourselves. I mean, why prepare for the future of "mankind"... humans... if, eventually, there will BE no humans? Because that's what "evolution" teaches: that WE (also) "evolve." If that's true, evolve into "what"... and why not seek out that (eventuality)? The, what, beyond-human that "we" supposedly will one day be?

Yet, we spend inordinate amounts of time... and money... on what we are "now". On ADAPTING to our environment (but not EVOLVING through it).

We are a "kind"... "homo"... and a "species"... "sapiens". And we are the ONLY species of our "kind." EVEN if we've ADAPTED... we didn't evolve from some other "KIND." And ALL "kinds" came from the same SOURCE. That is why bonobos and chimps... and humans... have some of the same DNA: that DNA is in ALL kinds; just more in some and less in others, and some having several of the same "markers".

But that shouldn't be hard to understand... unless one is SO sure on ONESELF... that one cannot see or hear the truth (or the Truth). Because there is a bit of that "Source" in ALL life: human, beast, plant... spirit. Every LIVING... BREATHING... thing. It's pretty easy to understand, though. Think, say, flour... and all that one can make from it. The vast variety of products that are made from flour. Yet, a biscuit isn't a cake, and a pie isn't a cookie. A loaf of bread isn't a cupcake, and gravy isn't a croissant. Yet, they all contain flour.

I realize that that's a very simple analogy, but I offer it to show how the something with (some of) the same BASIC ingredient can be an entirely DIFFERENT "kind." Look at the types of biscuits there are. Or cakes... pies... cookies. Yet, again, a cake is not a cookie, nor is a pie a biscuit.

And once you make a cake, you really can't change it into a biscuit. Or a pie into a loaf of bread. Or gravy into a cake. Not technically, anyway. Sure, you can manipulate things and end up with, say, a gravy cake (gag!). Or a loaf of bread with peach filling and CALL it, what, a loaf of pie? Whatever, I think you get my drift. But in any case, the one won't turn into the other... without YOU manipulating the ingredients. And, given the severe lack of gravy cakes and loaves of pie out there, I don't imagine it's easy... or desirable.

IF, however, I tried to make a cake at, say, some very high altitude... and didn't adjust my flour content or over temp... or maybe used too much/little yeast, etc., my cake just might not turn out as the cake I desired, but something else (and Lord knows what we'd call it - a "custard cake" maybe?). I would have to ADAPT the ingredients to the ENVIRONMENT. And so, a little less flour, a little less temp... and viola! I have a cake! Maybe not as "fluffy" and "light" as if I had mixed and baked it at sea level... and so perhaps a DENSER cake... but still... a cake.

Just as perhaps these swallows have adapted shorter wings to compensate for the traffic and ADAPT to the environment where THEY are. BUT... they're not just still BIRDS (and so the same "kind")... but SWALLOWS, and so the same "GENUS." Just now, they're might be called a different SPECIES of swallow (i.e., the "short-winged" swallow, vs. the formerly "okay-winged" swallow). But still swallows... and still birds.

Of course, we humans are adapting in other ways, too. Long ago, we used to walk EVERYWHERE. We HAD to, as there was little in the way of transportation. Then came the horse and cart (for pretty much everyone)... then the rail... then the car... bus... airplane. NOW, walking is something many of us have to MAKE ourselves do and in some instances we don't at all, and not because we CAN'T but because we don't WANT to.

Adaptation is not evolution, as evolutionists wish us to believe. To the contrary, they're entirely separate issues... and I wish "evolutionists" would use a little INTELLIGENT HONESTY when broaching the topic. It's deceitful to try and "sell" the two as the same thing. They're not. In truth, at least.

Thanks again, though, for sharing the information and opening dialogue. I love the topic and discussing why I think what is obviously "adaptation" is being FALSELY sold as "evolution." I marvel that folks get mad at ME when I present that truth. Sort of like how JWs and other uber-religious folk get all bent out of shape when the ruse of their religion is revealed to them. Absolutely the same reaction. S'why I always say I consider them the very same, just at opposite poles.

Peace to you, my dear friend!

YSFS of Christ,

Shelb

Good Evening Shelby!..

I`m happy you weighed in,I`m always interested in other points of view..

Continuous Adaptions/Variations of Species over millions of years could very well produce..(And I believe it does)..
Something we wouldn`t recognize a million or 2 years down the road..
It still Leaves the question of "Where the source of life come from?".....Except For the Believers..LOL!!..
I think Evidence of Evolution is all around us..

If I Hadn`t Evolved..
This Is What My Drivers License Picture Would Look Like..


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..................................................OUTLAW

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Melarkey (but peace to you, my dear friend!). Let me ask you something: dinosaurs lived long before man. They say birds are the descendants of dinosaurs (due to the similarities in digestive systems/gizzards, feet/claws, "beaks", etc.). Why would dinosaurs have needed to "grow" feathers? A species doesn't need feathers to fly (think... pterodactyls, bats, butterflies...). All it needs is wings. Yet, everything that has wings... AND feathers... can't necessarily fly, at least not for any worthy distance (think ostrich, chickens...).

Here's something to consider, lu: Dinosaurs came... and went. Went... due to some "catastrophic" event. they say (I won't go all "Flood" on ya, here - LOL!). BUT... if that event was severe enough to kill dinosaurs... assuming there were herds of them, of each of the many "species" thought to have existed... then it should have been significant enough to also kill... say... woolly mammoths and saber-toothed tigers, etc. (I know, I know, different time era. But stay with me). So, what happened? Something came out of the "soup"... and "evolved" into dinosaurs... then, what, came out AGAIN... and evolved into woolly mammoths and saber tootheds? Wait... and THEN... then came out the soup and evolved AGAIN... into modern-day animals (including humans)?

"Do you see where this is going? It's NO different to ME... than the WTBTS melarkey that tries to "sell" that Christ has more than one return. Per them, he "arrived" in 1914. BUT, oh wait, he's going to "arrive" AGAIN... at some future time. MELARKEY. True, he is WITH us, those who belong to him, starting with the outpouring of his (holy) spirit during that day of Pentecost in 30 CE... but he hasn't RETURNED, as he promised he would. He is WITH us... in SPIRIT. But he will also RETURN... LITERALLY arrive... again... at some point. But he only does that once.

One could see, if one had "eyes"... that the "theory" of evolution, as most wish to explain it (i.e., life coming from some "primordial soup") is impossible. Because it requires TWO... mmmmmm... "creeps"... out of the primordial soup. One to start the dinosaurs (because, surely, THEY "evolved" from this soup, too, right?)... and one for the life that came into existence apparently 100s of 1000s of years later.

Regardless of all of that, the theory is not that we evolve only mentally (which I can totally accept, but on the basis that we really just adapt), but physically, which is BS. Else, we would see SOME evidence of it now. Even if only slightly. Yes, I've seen the pics of the 2-toed people somewhere in Africa. BUT... they are still humans. With 2 verse 5 toes... but not some other species... genus... or kind. Another BREED, maybe (which I think what we used to call "race" and now call "ethnicity" is - just breeds: chihuahua, corgi, dachshund, collie... all dogs, different breeds - caucasoid, mongoloid, negroid... australoid... all humans, different breeds...), but not another species, let alone KIND.



Yet... I recognize that image you included: a spermazoid. Funny thing, though: THAT hasn't changed in a gazillion years, though, has it?

It still Leaves the question of "Where the source of life come from?".....Except For the Believers..LOL!!..

And there you go! Unfortunately, due to all of the BS put out there by the false christs, false prophets, and false scribes, folks have become SO turned off, they often won't even entertain anything that can't be proven TODAY in a test tube. I have shared, though, as much as I have been granted to, that the SPIRIT realm and [what we call] "science" is NOT in conflict. It's just that we don't have the knowledge and tools to "PROVE" that which is spiritual... and, sadly, we never will. Why? Because... we will ALWAYS be too primitive. We can NEVER "catch up"... because our knowledge and tools are of THIS world. Which world is LIMITED.

Also, religion has pulled so much hokus-pokus and smoke and mirrors into the picture. What we fail to really accept is, what if there is a life form SO FAR ADVANCED from us... say, 10's of 1000s of years, if not more, farther along than we are... but is able to communicate with us (well, those of us who LISTEN)? We seek such a capability NOW - how many would LOVE to time travel? How many are researching that possibility? What, though, if there is a HIGHER life form than us? We can't fathom that, though, because we live in the here and now. As did those before us, those who, if we were to travel BACK in time, just couldn't imagine man flying. Indeed, save a few who could envision the possibility, but not in the manner that we do it now, one would probably be stoned or burned for even suggesting a thing.

BUT... what would we "evolve" TO, dear one? OR... what if we DON'T evolve... but are CHANGED? Not just into a "better" life form, bu a HIGHER life form? THAT... is the promise... and has always been the INTENT... of the MOST Holy One (of Israel), JAH of Armies... and of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH). To ELEVATE us... in spirit AND body! NOT just evolve from one mortal life form to another, but to be taken BEYOND that.

Funny thing, though: we have no problem believing in a process (of evolution) that takes MILLIONS of years... yet, grow oh so impatient because another process is taking a couple/few thousand.

Earthling man... in all of his self-assumed "wisdom." Go figure.



I think evidence of adaptation is all around us... and he that doesn't adapt is going to have a hard time surviving. Not just physically, but mentally... and even spiritually (think, people who STILL need [a] religion, EVEN after coming to know it is false... and so STAY stuck in "limbo", never progressing either to life without religion... OR life WITH Christ. Rather, they simply stay enslaved... and hating life).

"Evolution", however, as most understand it, is merely a theory and a hugely unproven one. As with murder, "circumstantial" evidence is simply not enough... and I, for one, have not seen even a modicum of anything that would rid me of the great amount of REASONABLE doubt that I have. To the contrary, I have received MUCH to raise MORE than reasonable doubt. but even utter rejection.

I know, I know - my thinking is not of the conventional wisdom. One must either accept evolution... or reject it on the basis of religious/creationist beliefs. I don't accept either, the scientific "wisdom"... or the very misled religious "reasoning." I reject BOTH, because NEITHER are based in TRUTH. And for me, truth is what matters. Not popular opinion. From either pole.

Peace to you, my dear friend!

YSFS of Christ,

Shelb

Evolution is just as much a "god" to those who put their faith in science... as "Jeezus" and "Mary" are to those who put their faith in religion (peace to you, all!). Both need SOMETHING to believe in in order to create for THEMSELVES answers to their (unanswerable) questions. If they would just turn their gaze to the One who can... and would... lead them into ALL truth... they wouldn't spend their time... and their precious lives... searching for things that only lead to futility.

Although... is no MONEY in turning to Christ. There IS money, however, in both science (through grants, etc.) and religion (through tithes, donations, contributions, etc.).

Truth, however, can't be bought... or found... with mammon. It can only be granted to those who seek the SOURCE of truth. And that Source is the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Son and Chosen One (MischaJAH) of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies.

I realize that it sounds... I dunno... peculiar, maybe. "Out of this world." Perhaps that's because it IS "out" of THIS world. But the truth is that that One is the ONLY One who can lead anyone who wants to BE led... into ALL truth. Not just today's truth. Not just spiritual truth. ALL truth. As to that world AND this one.

And... he really is not far off from us. Goodness, so many believe that our dead loved ones can "reach out" and "speak" to us. Help us, guide us. If they CAN... why could not other beings, those are not only are NOT dead, but perhaps have NEVER died... or, if died, didn't STAY dead, as WE know death... do the same?

We so limit ourselves. By not thinking beyond this world, the physical existence, as we know it. That, too, is enslaving. If your heart is "bound" to this realm. so your knowledge, understanding, sight... hearing... will be. Think: how do you think someone living in, say, 1400 BCE... or 1400 CE... would react if you tried to explain the telephone to them? An iPad? Computer? Car? Airplane? Television? Cell phone?

We think, because we are in OUR time, that there is nothing... and no one... before us. We are wrong. And if we were ever able to travel BACK in time... we would find people who think THEY'RE time is the only time, that there is nothing... and no one... more.

A mistake.

Peace, dear chikkens... and FREE YOUR MIND... by freeing... your heart!

A slave of Christ,

SA, who offers that most "visionaries" were thought to be somewhat different, if not kooky... and yet, are responsible for most of our "modern evolution"...

Good Morning Shelby!..


LOL!!!!!..You do know how to make me laugh..I love your Melarkeys!..

Mammals and Dinosaurs both lived at the same time..
Due to an absolutely horrible day at the office (LOL!!),it was the mammals that became the dominant species..
They were able to adapt to the changes..

Evolution is Adaptation..
You say potatoe I say pataughto..LOL!!

There`s crazies on both sides of the fence,who refuse to leave the door open to other possibilities/answers..
I don`t believe evolution rules out a God..
If there is a God..
It could be Evolution is how God decided to get things done..

It`s nice to see an evolution thread where people can have fun discussing evolution..
I don`t believe I`ve ever seen that before..
I think this is how evolution threads should go..
This could be the forum where Evolution Threads Evolve..LOL!!!!..

...................................OUTLAW

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I found the article very interesting, and all that you said up there too Shelby!

If 'they' want to call that modern day evolution in action... by all means, do it. But if that is evolution in action... then it has nothing to do with turning one kind into another kind. Just changing one kind into an adapted form of that kind.



Yes.

I find the new way of thinking by some (which is actually not so new) that says 'we will not believe or accept anything unless science says it is true; we will not go beyond what science has told us is true' to be very limiting... and that attitude is the same as what the religious also state: we will not go beyond what our religion/holy book/religious leaders tell us to be true. I understand that putting one's faith in science seems safer - you are less likely to be fooled by charlatans and/or false religious claims. But blind faith in science (really the scientific community) or blind faith in religion (and the men running that show) is still blind faith.

Science has gotten us farther than religion in understanding the world around us, and what science has discovered helps some of us to understand what Christ is teaching us... gives us something to 'see'. So I am not knocking science at all. But science is still limited, and any new evidence can change what is accepted. SLOWLY change what is accepted.



But Christ is not limited.



Interesting article, thank you Outlaw!


Peace to you both,
your servant, and sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

Good Morning Tammy!..


I think you make a very good point..
Blind faith in "anything" often leads to wrong conclusions or at worst,disaster..

...............................OUTLAW

_________________

I meant to state:

"We think, because we are in OUR time, that there is nothing... and no one... BEYOND us."

Thanks for getting that, dear Tams (peace to you, luv!)

And thanks again for the thread, dear Sher'f!

Peace to you, both!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shelb

The only issue here is really to Darwinists, those that believe that evolution is 100% unguided and purely random by chance.
Which means these changes in the swallows are NOT due to adapting to their environment BUT are caused by the environment and then, via the process of natural selection, the changes is adapted by the animal.
And yes, that is, IMO, even more BS.
One can not deny evolution, when properly understood the science is airtight.
What is debatable is the process of natural selection and that the process is ALWAYS purely random and by chance.

In short, a darwinist believes the change happens by pure random chance and then, somehow via the process of natural selection, the animal then adapts to this change ( this is a very simplified view of course).

IMO, I believe that the evolutionary process is guided and sustained by God and that while many changes are by-product of the environment, I do believe that it is a case of adaption that is GUIDED, not by chance or somehow by "natural selection".

It should be noted that the BIOLOGICAL understanding of evolution from one species to another is not that hard to understanding.
In a nutshell, when one group changes enough that it can no longer mate with the original group ( but can mate within itself of course) then a "new species" has evolved.
EX:
Group B is a pack of wolves from group A and after generations of changes, they can no longer breed with Group A so even though they may look the same ( basically) and still be wolves, they are a different "species" of wolves compared to the one in group A.

We tend to view all wolves as the same species but science doesn't.
There are in fact only 3 species.

There are three species of wolves in the world: the gray wolf (Canis lupus), the red wolf (Canis rufus), and the Ethiopian wolf (Canis simensis) sometimes referred to as the Abyssinian wolf. Scientists debate whether the Ethiopian wolf is a true or a member of the jackal family ((Canis aureus).

Yep, total melarkey, dear P (peace, brother, and good to see you!)



When properly understood, yes! Or better yet, when ACCURATELY understood. And that would be that ALL came from ONE source... as to its KIND... and then each KIND "adapted" to its environment, as that environment changes. EVEN... in the case of procreation. For example, as long as there were sheep to mate with, sheep mated with sheep. When, however, there weren't enough sheep (in a given area)... or for whatever reason, a goat and sheep were communally penned/restricted, the sheep and the goat mated. But in each situation, it was due to a change in their environment, which FORCED them to adapt. Even so, neither the sheep (ovis), the goat (capra), or its offspring (ovis+capra... if such lived, as such abort or are stillborn)... didn't "evolve" into another KIND. Because although different GENUS... they are the same KIND: bovinae. Neither they nor their offspring would ever evolve into, say, a horse (equidae equus ferus) or donkey (equidae equus asinus) or (equidae equus zebra)... or lion (felidae panthera leo) or tiger (felidae panthera tigris or leopard (felidae panthera onca).

"And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind."

Which is why it was NOT impossible for "all" of the creatures that Noah took with to get on the Ark: it was only the KIND that was taken, the FORERUNNERS of the vast, even innumerable SPECIES... which is what evolves, in response to changes in its environment. Not the KIND.



This is partly true as to a SPECIES: the change is NOT random but is directly related to adaptation to the environment, AS SUCH IS NEEDED. Even so, it has nothing to do with the "origin"... or evolution (melarkey!) of the KIND.

I believe that the evolutionary process is guided and sustained by God and that while many changes are by-product of the environment, I do believe that it is a case of adaption that is GUIDED, not by chance or somehow by "natural selection".

I cannot speak to this, as I have not heard. It makes sense to me that He would have a hand in somethings; however, the whole world is lying in the power of the WICKED one... and not JAH... and, again, I have not heard, so I have to leave this one off. But I have heard as to what I've shared above... and "kinds" do not evolve. It is species that do. And even where an anomaly occurs and a two genus' mate, the result is almost always abortion, stillbirth, early death, or sterility.

LOVING the discussion!

Peace to you, all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

It truly isn't, dear P (peace, luv!). Problem is, most darwinists/evolutionists don't STOP... at the species level. Darwin wrote "Evolution of the SPECIES," but somehow man has ran ahead, as he tends to do, and applied this all the way back up the chain. If they only stopped and THOUGHT about it, they would see just how erroneous this is. But they don't STOP... and so, keep running on the more ignorance. Because they are running AWAY from the TRUTH... and not TOWARD (him).

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Hi Shel

It is sad how atheists will try to use science to make an argument against God, their fear of God is telling.
As the sustainer of ALL God is the source AND the power of all that happens, the first cause, the immovable mover.
He sustains ALL because without Him and Our Lord, through which ALL IS sustained, there would be nothing.

Evolution is simply a term science has given to the observable changes in a living organism that allows it to adapt and survive.
Science should ask WHY such a process exists, why should life evolve ? why should life survive?
That living organisms CAN adapt and change to survive is indeed an amazing thing and why would God NOT create life so that it CAN and DOES adapt and survive?

Epicurianisim is rampant in this world...

Hi Paul, good to see you!



Yes. This is what I learned when I researched how bacteria evolve, mutate, etc. Until you wrote what you did above, I never actually questioned what I had learned. I just focused on learning the accepted science.

And now I am able to understand what the Spirit is now telling me: that man concerns himself with learning what is said to be true - so that he can know the accepted conclusions and their details; take part in conversations, etc - but often without regard for whether what he has learned IS true.


Like memorizing for a test so that you can pass... without really paying attention to whether what you have memorized is true.




Yes! Showing again that science is NOT in conflict with God. And if some were not so afraid of science (because their religion teaches them to reject it), then they might be able to better understand some of these accounts. And if some were not so dismissive of these accounts (because of what religion has taught about them or because they hold themselves as more intelligent, superior, etc, than 'belief in God'), then they too might see that there is no conflict. They might learn a few things themselves.



Peace to you both,
your servant, and sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy