xjwsforChrist

The May 15, 2015 WT has a QFR that asks: "Who is Gog of Magog mentioned in the book of Ezekiel?" This is an official printed explanation of what was explained to a limited audience at the Annual Meeting back in October. The outcome of who Gog of Magog is is no surprise to me because it was announce several months ago. However, what is surprising is that a careful reading of the article contains a MAJOR, MAJOR change in JW doctrine that, I dare say, most JWs will NOT pick up on. Here are selected quotes from the article. See if YOU can pick up on the change. The quotes appear in sequential order as printed in the article. (Hint: I made it pretty obvious.)

I have to make a retraction. I read, re-read, re-read and re-read the article. Then I read it again, but out loud. The article is slyly worded, in my opinion, but it is ONLY talking about the Gog in Ezekiel. They are not saying "final attack" as in the 'final attack at the end of the thousand years'. My eyes were deceiving me. They are still putting Armageddon before the thousand years. However, they are separating the Gogs. There are two "Gogs". One, "Gog OF Magog" from Ezekiel, which attacks BEFORE the thousand years, and "Gog AND Magog" of Revelation 20, which is AFTER the thousand years.

I think the words "final attack" threw me. They're calling what happens at the end of the thousand years the "final test" instead of the "final attack", even though Revelation 20:8 has them gathering for the war and encircling the camp of the holy ones. That seems like an attack to me, but that's just my simple-mindedness, I guess.

I've apparently gotten all worked up over nothing. Nevermind. My apologies.

Not so fast, WTBTS (and peace to you, dear LQ!). As you folks state, "We are told at the END of the 1,000 years Satan will be released...". Which MEANS, if "Armageddon" is what comes NEXT (as the teaching of the WTBTS is that it IS)... then Satan must be abyssed... NOW. Yes? Yet, ummm... well, who, then, is the "ruler" of "this system of things" (i.e., the "world")... NOW? Eye-Eee... how can Satan RULE... while he's ABYSSED?? Oh, wait... according to them, Satan is NOT yet abyssed... but RULING (this system of things). So, like, what... is he ruling FROM the abyss?? But how can THAT happen? The abyss HAS a king... yes? Abaddon/Apollyon... yes? Revelation 9:1, 11 Or, wait, are they saying the abyss has TWO kings??



Well, duh. Anyone paying attention to what is written in the account could SEE that Gog (of Magog) and Satan are not one and the same:

Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

If Gog (of Magog) and Satan were the same, well, he'd be deceiving himself... wouldn't he? And gathering himself for battle (rather than deceiving "them" into it)? And he would number many, "like the sand on the seashore"... versus one. Wait... AND he'd be devoured by fire from heaven... RIGHT BEFORE he was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur.

Good grief. No wonder the WTBTS doesn't want their members to read anything but their melarkey ("No, no, YOU don't need to read it - WE'LL tell you what it says. See? It's says that Satan is NOT Gog (of Magog). What? You could have gotten that on your own, just by reading it yourself?? NO, YOU COULDN'T. You COULDN'T... because YOUR READING COMPREHENSION SUCKS. How do we know? Because WE'VE MADE DAMN SURE that it does!").



Face palm. Where, pray tell, did they get that Michael stands up "at Armageddon"? They are confusing the event when Michael DID stand up... eye-eee... when he and his angels battled with the Adversary and HIS angels... and the latter lost and was exiled from the spirit realm. As recorded at Revelation 12:10. Yes, but, Miss Smarty Shellamar, are these not one and the same events? Ummmm, no. Can't be. Why? Because in the first instance, Satan is hurled down to the earth... where he is given some time to mess around:

"... woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.” Revelation 12:12

Notice, he is hurled/gone DOWN. OUT of heaven. In contrast, in the events recorded at Revelation 20:7... he is released from the ABYSS/PIT. Eye-eee... brought (back) UP. So, they CANNOT be the same events, as he is not IN heaven when the second occurs. Ummmm... duh...



Not even gonna touch it. Absolutely no need. No, wait. Some need: that Michael is "the great prince" standing in behalf of Israel does NOT make him Christ. He IS a prince... and a GREAT one. He is NOT, however, the PRINCE of princes... eye-eee, the GREATEST prince. Christ, however, is. To say that Misch'a'El is Christ, JUST because he's a "great prince," totally overlooks the OTHER princes. For example, the "prince of Persia." HE was a "great" prince, as well! So great that our dear Lord needed assistance to DEAL with him. Yes?? Oh, wait... I forgot: per the WTBTS, Michael was assisting... himself. You know, the one Daniel called "Lord," and wondered how it could even be that he was speaking WITH his... and our... Lord. Michael... is not MY Lord. Rather, he and I are FELLOW slaves of the SAME Lord:

"Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of JaheShua. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.” Revelation 19:9, 10

"I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!” Revelation 22:8, 9



Here's the thing... though: The great tribulation occurs... BEFORE Christ returns. At least, that's what Matthew 24:29-31 says:

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Gather them... for what? The "war"? No, because there is no BATTLE in the "war." True, Gog and Magog are GATHERED for a battle... but no battle OCCURS. Because FIRE comes down and DEVOURS them. So, what are the angels of the Son of Man gathering HIS "elect" FOR? This:

JaheShua spoke to them again in parables, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

“But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

This, dear ones... is the "great tribulation."

“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests." Matthew 22:1-10

Now, why would a wedding hall even need to BE filled (with guests)... unless... there was... wait for it... A WEDDING. If Christ returns to gather HIS elect/chosen ones... SURELY, his next step would be to JOIN himself TO them. AS ONE. Yes? And so, let's say that happens: they become one "flesh". Flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone... by means of spirit (and so, one spirit, in FULL union). THEN what?

Well, if christendom, including the WTBTS, were to tell it, they all sit around on clouds playing harps. When JOHN told of it, though, HE wrote:

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about JaheShua and because of the Word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:1-4

Wait. They were given authority to judge... some had been beheaded (because of their profession of Christ and BECAUSE of Christ, the Word). They CAME TO LIFE (ummmm... were resurrected? Metamorphed?)... and then REIGNED... WITH him... for... wait for it, "a thousand years." Really. What "thousand" years? The SAME "thousand years" as this:

"I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that arkaic serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended." Revelation 20:1-3

So, Satan is bound and abyssed for "a thousand years," and those with authority to judge come to life (i.e., by resurrection OR changing - because before that, they were all dead; either having fallen asleep or having not yet RECEIVED life from Christ)... and rule with Christ for... wait for it "a thousand years." And they DO this... "immediately AFTER the [great] tribulation/distress."

Yet, "Armageddon" is AFTER the "thousand years have ENDED."

You see, this is where reading comprehension skills are CRITICAL... sans one having holy spirit and guidance by the HOLY One of Israel AND Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, THE Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah): because MANY confuse the "great tribulation" with "Armageddon." Why? Because the "great tribulation" is something that has never occurred nor will ever occur again. Stands to reason, that would be "Armageddon," yes? No. Why not? Because the "great tribulation," while orchestrated by JAH Himself, occurs BEFORE Christ gathers his elect/chosen ones... while the War of the Great Day of God Almighty... which is "fought" at the PLACE called "Har-Mageddon"... occurs not only AFTER Christ has gathered his elect/chosen ones... but AFTER they have RULED with him... FOR 'A THOUSAND" YEARS.

Just because ONE thing has never occurred before... and will never occur again... does NOT mean something ELSE that has never occurred before and will never occur again... will NOT occur. Hopefully, the Jewish Holocaust, which had never occurred before... will never occur again. Or U.S. pre-bellum slavery. Or Pompeii. Or Tenochitlan. Or any other disaster that has befallen mankind. The fall of former great empire of Babylon. That had never occurred before... and I highly doubt it will ever occur again. But that doesn't mean something ELSE that has never occurred before... and will never occur again... will not occur! See, WTBTS people??

Sigh. No. I know you don't, poor things. You can't see because your gaze is glued on your fatted golden calf. If you would just soften your heads, though, then loosen yours neck a tad, you could TURN your gaze... so as to see the One who could SHOW you all of these things, these truths, indeed LEAD you "into" them.

It only starts with softening your hearts. That's all it takes to get started. A soft heart, so that the OIL of "exultation" can further lubricate those neck "joints" that have been put so far out of whack.

May it be so for you, Israel, so that perhaps you, too, will hear the Spirit, when he calls, with his Bride to YOU, to:

"Come! Take Life's (Christ's) water... the holy spirit of God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, which water is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit... FREE!"

One who openly professes, along with Michael, her fellow servant, that she is a slave of Christ,

Shellamar

LOL!!@Shelby!!..

The whole Gog thing is absolute nonsense to me..
It`s 2015, do most people even know what a Gog is?!..LOL!!..

I knew you`d be able to "RIP UP" WBT$ Reasoning from another point of view..
It`s shredded!!..

There you go LQ..
Your thread isn`t pointless or wasted..
The WBT$ just Took a Beating....."Shelby Style"..


...................................OUTLAW

_________________

I am agog! I am aghast! (Lyrics from Les Miserables - Red & Black)

May you all have a peace as our Lord the Amen gives it.


--Armand

I always like it when Shelby puts the smack down on WTBTS' teachings.

That said, as I said in my second post, the article wasn't saying what I thought it was saying. WTBTS is still wrong, sure. But you have to read the whole article to get what they are saying. My issue is that I hadn't quite read to the end. All along, I was thinking "Gog of Magog" in Ezekiel and "Gog and Magog" in Revelation were referring to the same thing in WTBTS' eyes. But, they weren't.

In WTBTS' timeline, it goes like this:

"Gog of Magog" / attack of king of the north / attack of kings of the earth = a sort of "final attack" prior to the great tribulation that prompts the great tribulation, then comes Armageddon, then comes the 1000 years, then comes Satan misleading the nations, "Gog and Magog", then comes the "final test" to see if people would be loyal or not, then God comes and kills all those whom Satan mislead.

I had to read toward the end of the article:



That was the key component I was missing. All along it was talking about the Ezekiel "Gog", even though right up front it introduced the "end of the thousand years" thing. Let's just say I got confused. I'm a little embarrassed by it, but it took me re-reading it several times, and then out loud to finally see that they weren't saying what I thought they were saying.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that they're wrong in a lot of it, as Shelby so graciously pointed out.

Yeah, I had to find the article and read it, Leaving, to see what you were talking about in your second post. The article is very convoluted. But then, so is the entire teaching that those who survived armageddon (the jw version of armageddon that is; the first 'test'), must behave perfect for a thousand years (and so live also in fear of the second 'test'), because they might fail the 'second test' at the end of the thousand years, and obviously according to them, there is a great horde that DOES fail that second test.

I always found all of that exhausting. Toe the line in your regular life (many living in fear - even if they do not admit that to themselves), and then toe the line (again living in fear - even if they do not admit that to themselves) for a thousand years. Only to possibly (and for sure some will) fail EVEN IF you were 'worthy' at the first 'test'.

Considering that the alternative of all of that is simply death/nothingness (unless you get resurrected into the 'jw paradise'), I would not be the least bit surprised that some - maybe even many - people would rather simply die, than live through that. Except of course for the fear that the wts (and other 'daughters') use to control/manipulate people, especially perhaps those who were born-in or brought in as children.


...

Gog and Magog are already outside the Kingdom (that has been established on earth since the start of the thousand years). They are the men (goats), that were not permitted entrance (and I believe also the spirits that followed and belong to the Adversary.) So it is those OUTSIDE the Kingdom already, that come against the Kingdom, the people and camp that God loves (to kill them and take the inheritance for themselves) and THOSE (gog and magog) who are destroyed at Armageddon.

Those who are in Christ do not have to fear the end of the thousand years (or second death). And the sheep (the subjects of the Kingdom) are also inside the Kingdom, invited in because they have shown that they have the law (of love) written upon their hearts, and have revealed this in how they treat even the least of the brothers of Christ. So they do not have to fear either.



Peace to you Leaving, and to you all,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

OOH my!

Good evening everyone, Peace to you all!

I'm with Tammy, in even trying to reread this Wt understanding of "Gog OF Magog" and " Gog AND Magog" I am exhausted. This is crazy!

But I must say that this statement in part is absolutely wonderful in exposing just how absurd the WTBS's timeline of explanations truly are...


As you WT folks state, "We are told at the END of the 1,000 years Satan will be released...". Which MEANS, if "Armageddon" is what comes NEXT (as the teaching of the WTBTS is that it IS)... then Satan must be abyssed... NOW. Yes?


These folks have been "craving of day of Jehovah" since I can remember my entire life. It is "around the corner" it is "in your face" blah blah blah....so then as Shelby shared if Armageddon is what comes NEXT in the order of events THEN... Satans behind should be locked up, and we are at the end of the 1,000 year reign which puts all those so called anointed in heaven, Christ already returned and gathered, marriage already taken place and the separation of the sheep and goats almost DONE!

The ever changing new light and current understanding is absurd and crazy...

Thanks everyone for your sharing,
Love your sister and fellow servant of Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim

Smile at you all (LOL! at you, dear Sher'f)... and peace to you, all! Dear LQ (peace to you, dear brother!), I got that you had misread the article. But your misstep gave me opportunity to address the entire fallacy of the JW "Armageddon" fear-mongering. Which I think is just as, if not more, important that understanding "who" they believe Gog (of Magog) is.

Dear Tams and 'Mom, thank you for you comments, with which I must heartily agree.

Also, this, dear ones:



Ummmmmm... no. No, no, no, NO.

First, WHAT attack of God's people at the END of the great tribulation!?? Let's reread the account:

“Immediately after the distress of those days

‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Christ RETURNS... IMMEDIATELY AFTER... the great tribulation. IMMEDIATELY after. To gather his chosen ones. When, then, is there TIME for an attack to OCCUR??? Between the "end" of the great tribulation and the "immediately" after it? All while Christ is gathering his chosen ones? What, he's going to let Gog attack them AS he's gathering them???

Melarkey. BS.

Second, there is no "final test" at the end of the 1,000 years. Were that TRUE... SOMEONE (of Gog) would SURVIVE. Yes? But let's reread the account:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

Does anyone here see ANYWHERE that it says "fire same down from heaven and devoured SOME of them"?? They are ALL destroyed. As dear Tams stated above, those who belong to Christ ARE ALREADY IN THE BELOVED CITY, the NEW Jerusalem. Indeed, that is what Gog (and Magog) and misled by Satan to come AGAINST. But THOSE people... ARE SAVED.

THIRD... and VERY CONTRARY to the WTBTS's FALSE teaching that after the great tribulation there is another, "final", test at the end of the 1,000 years because... there can BE no subsequent test, FINAL or otherwise, for those WHO COME OUT THE GREAT TRIBULATION. We KNOW this because:

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”

These ARE IN THE BELOVED CITY. How do we KNOW? Because (1) they are "BEFORE the throne," (2) the Lamb "in the CENTER of the throne" (3) leads THEM. So, how in the WORLD can Satan MISLEAD them???????????

As dear Tams shared, these are already IN the Beloved City. Where the Tree of Life is... in the CENTER. They GOT there... IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great tribulation... when Christ RETURNED... and GATHERED them... INTO her. COMPLETED the building of her, but placing the LAST "living stone" IN her. Which act allows his binding... marriage... TO her to become IN EFFECT, so that the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... can FILL her with HIS spirit... and reside/dwell IN HER:

"Look! The tent of God IS WITH MANKIND."

SHE becomes the temple of God, a temple made of PEOPLE (1 Corinthians 3:16)... in which God DWELLS... and He and Christ, the MOST Holy and HOLY... a temple in HER. Revelation 21:22.

She COMES DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN (i.e., these RETURN to the earth, to RULE and DWELL... UPON IT)... all during that "thousand" years. How do we KNOW? Because (1) they have co-rulership with Christ during that period; (2) that rulership is UPON the earth, not "from ABOVE" it; because (3) they INHERIT the earth AS their dominion; (4) which earth JAH GAVE... to the sons of MANKIND.

THEY are the ones, by following their Leader, Christ, who RESTORE the earth to what ADHAM was SUPPOSED to make it into: a place where JAH's will is done (JUST AS it is done in the SPIRIT realm). Like Adham was SUPPOSED to, they "have in dominion" everything ON the earth and it is through THEM that the "garden" is spread over ALL the earth.

With the Tree of Life... Christ... ALWAYS at the "center."

May those with ear to hear HEAR and get the sense of these truths. May they QUIT touching the unclean thing that is the WTBTS, yet one "daughter" of the MOTHER of [the] Harlots, Babylon the Great, that filthy adulteress... turn AROUND... and walk in the ONLY Way that leads to God (John 14:6), the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). May they do so in response to hearing that One... and his Bride... when they say to such one:

"Come! TAKE Life's (Christ's) 'water'... the holy spirit of GOD, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which 'water' is poured out ONLY from the innermost parts of His Son, Christ, and established KING, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ,

Shel

Amen!




Peace and love to you all, as Christ gives these,
your servant, and sister, and a fellow slave of Christ,
tammy