xjwsforChrist

I agree, to some extent, dear P (mornin' and peace to you, luv!), but have to ask as to asking Peter... or ANYONE... to shepherd the sheep, why ask others to shepherd HIS sheep... when he could... and said he WOULD... do that himself? Which was the gist of HIS words recorded at John 10:16:

"'In all truth I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheepfold through the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a bandit. He who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the flock; the gatekeeper lets him in, the sheep hear his voice, one by one he calls his own sheep and leads them out. When he has brought out all those that are his, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow because they know his voice. They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not recognise the voice of strangers.'

"[Jesus] told them this parable but they failed to understand what he was saying to them.

"So [Jesus] spoke to them again: In all truth I tell you, I am the gate of the sheepfold. All who have come IN PLACE OF me* are thieves and bandits, but the sheep took no notice of them. I am the gate. Anyone who enters through me will be safe: such a one will go in and out and will find pasture. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come so that they may have life and have it to the full.

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep.

"The hired man, since he is not the shepherd and the sheep do not belong to him, abandons the sheep as soon as he sees a wolf coming, and runs away, and then the wolf attacks and scatters the sheep; he runs away because he is only a hired man and has no concern for the sheep.

"I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep.

"And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and [i]I must lead these too[/i]. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, one shepherd."

*http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2064&t=NIV

I realize that AFTER him some pushed the idea of "shepherds", but did CHRIST? Shepherds don't feed sheep, dear one - sheep graze. Shepherds WATCH OVER sheep... WHILE they're grazing... and keep them from harm (from, say, wolves, lions, etc.). Now, in his parable, our dear Lord DID refer to "hired men"... but he did not call them "shepherds." He also said that "hired men" would, in trying to save their OWN lives... abandon the sheep (to wolves). He, though, the GOOD shepherd... gave HIS life... FOR his sheep.

What GOOD shepherd, who is willing to go SO far... as to put his OWN life on the line... is going to just give them over to "hired men"... when he KNOWS those men WILL abandon his sheep??

What are your thoughts on this, dear one? Not meaning to contend - I am truly interested.

As always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

The gospels are very clear that there was an inner circle of the apostles: Peter, John and James.
That Peter was the more vocal and came off at times as the unofficial leader of the group is also clear.
That Peter was single out by Christ to shepherd and tend the flock that Christ left behind is also clear from the GOJ.
That Peter AND John and James ( Jesus's brother, not James Zebedee) were called the pillars of the Jerusalem church is clear.
That Peter is a central figure in the apostolic era ( the years after Christ ascended) is also clear.
What does all that mean to me?
That Peter, John and James were central figures in the emerging church, that Peter was the most "visible" of that group and that, according to the writer of the GOJ, Christ directly asked Peter to tend and watch over and to shepherd his ( Christ's) flock.

We also know that Peter was not a good person, he was rude, judgmental, short tempered, weak willed at times, lost faith, and was in short, TYPICAL of all of us.
Peter had in himself ALL that we human have as a prime example of needing God's grace.

In that, Peter truly was the figure head of the Church.
You won't find a better example of someone in need of redemption than Peter and you won't find anyone better than Peter to demonstrate that ONLY via God's GRACE are we saved.

To me, that is the true point of the end of the GOJ, Christ forgiving Peter 3X as Peter had denied him 3X AND giving him, Peter, who deserved so little, giving Peter so much.

Truly it exemplifies God's grace through Christ.

Just a couple of questions about those things...

An inner circle suggests that some are outside of that circle. How can that be among the twelve that Christ chose, that none would be greater than the other, that they would serve one another and love one another as Christ loved them; or that all would have ONE leader (Christ), and that all would be taught and be led by the Holy Spirit? (also Christ) How can there be an inner circle among equals, to the exclusion of those outside the circle?

How can the Church (the Body of Christ) have a figurehead... when the actual Head of the Body is alive and speaking?



Certainly I agree with you that Peter is a great example of forgiveness and grace and mercy, and love. And as Christ also said, "he who has been forgiven much, loves much."

Peace to you,
tammy

Why was there an inner circle?
Why did only Peter, James and John witness the transfiguration?
I don't know.
The gospel simply state that it was the case.
Just as Christ gave the apostles more than others ( to you it is given understanding...), it seems he gave some apostles more than other apostles as well.

Forgive me, dear P (peace to you!), for I do NOT mean to be contentious... but can you elaborate? I do not find such clarity in Matthew, Mark, Luke, OR Lazarus' account. Can you share that with me, please? Because if I'm missing something I'd really like to know about it.



I agree dear Peter was more vocal, but I never got that he was the unofficial leader... or that the group HAD any leader other than out dear Lord. In EVERY single account involving Peter IN THE GOSPELS, save TWO (when he was told by his brother that they had found Messiah, and when he responded to our dear Lord's question as to who he was), Peter is shown as quite impetuous, extremely hasty, hard-headed, nosy, and even lacking faith (on at least three occasions). BUT... he was always WILLING (to follow our dear Lord), even while he still didn't understand some things. Except for that one time, of course. All of this was true of Peter... BEFORE he received holy spirit.



Again, I don't think it IS clear. I think certain men's (erroneous) interpretation of what Christ was talking about on two occasions... which two interpretations are in stark opposition to a PLETHORA of other things Christ and others said/wrote.. SEEMS to make it (seem) clear...



You realize that James (our dear Lord's brother) was NOT one of the 12, though, yes? And so, James being pillar wasn't something CHRIST established, but MEN. Because Christ would NOT have placed James OVER one of the 12, whom HE chose... covenanted with... and SEALED with holy spirit. James didn't even acknowledge our dear Lord while he was alive - indeed, he opposed him! His being considered ("seemed to be") a pillar among those in Jerusalem only meant two things, dear one: (1) that folks look to him; and (2) because he was our dear Lord's brother in the flesh. So, of COURSE he (might) know what our dear Lord might want/do. Funny... Paul knew, as to circumcision of the nations... BEFORE James did, though.

So, being "considered" a pillar just meant he took a lead, which he did (he obviously wasn't a very timid man, if he deigned to oppose Christ in the first place). Didn't mean Christ APPOINTED him such a position, though. CHRIST is the one who appoints the pillars in God's "house"... and those appointments haven't been made, yet. They certainly weren't by the time John received.. and wrote... the Revelation (3:12 - notice, Christ said HE would make them a pillar...). NOR does the consideration of these three AS pillars by men mean they WERE pillars... or were the ONLY ones perceived as such (BY men). Please note, when Paul made mentioned, he said they SEEMED to be pillars (don't take my word for it, luv - look it up in the Greek). Wouldn't Paul have known?



Please show me how that is clear? If Peter was such a figure, why wasn't HE given the Revelation? Surely, the Father, who GAVE Peter to our Lord, could have allowed Peter to receive it. That JOHN received it... and given what John wrote in HIS letters, I am of the mind (and heart) that he had even more specialized knowledge than Peter.



Peter WAS the most visible when our dear Lord was with them in the flesh. But THAT is because PETER provided the most TEACHING opportunities (as to what NOT to do/how NOT to be). After our Lord ascended, it would seem that Paul was most visible (and vocal). Peter made a pretty lengthy speech, yes, which MIGHT have made some THINK he was more visible, but then so did Stephen. Unfortunately, they killed him. And why was Peter used to go to Cornelius, rather than the others? Because Peter's TRACK record was that he almost NEVER believed what he was TOLD! So, HE had to be SHOWN... HIMSELF... rather than another be shown the "unclean things" then telling Peter. Remember, Peter didn't believe when the women told him our Lord was raised. He CERTAINLY wouldn't have believed it if one of the others had come to him and said, "Okay, the Lord says Gentiles are clean, now!"



YEP... and so a PERFECT example to help us see how NOT to be!



Dear one, they ALL did! We ALL do! Peter just always made HIS readily manifest and so easy to use as a TEACHING lesson!



Christ is the figure head of the Church, dear one... and that was the point of Paul's words... when some were SAYING, as you and some do today, they "follow Cephas." It was wrong THEN... and it's wrong now.



SURE you will! Paul, who was arrogant, rebellious, impetuous, unfaithful, judgmental... and responsible for the MURDER of MANY of the Body! Judas (Iscariot) who, although our dear Lord's childhood companion, betrayed our dear Lord but WAS remorseful, to the point of taking his own life! David, who had a man killed, so that he could have his wife, resulting in the death of his son WITH that wife! Moses, who not only killed a man but blasphemed. Solomon... Cain... SO many. TOO many to name. Heck, you could put MY name on that list! LOLOL!



Again, yes, you will. All those I named above, just to start.



I understand, which is why I was given another POV for you to consider. If you could receive it.



Why would he NOT forgive Peter... for acting out of FEAR and so denying him... yet, forgive, say, Moses, David and Paul... who acted out of INTENT... and literally killed people? Yet, they WERE forgiven, yes... else God would had made SURE the Law that says "a life FOR a life" was fulfilled in their cases?

Dear P, I am going to ask you a very sincere question... which I TRULY hope does not offend, but I am compelled to ask: it is POSSIBLE that you cannot, at this time, see Christ... because you are looking... at Peter? And is it POSSIBLE that you cannot HEAR him... because you're not listening to HIM, but to others, including those who look to and have raised PETER up... as "(figure) head of the Church"?

I ask because doing things like that can be very... mmmmmm... debilitating... to one's sight and hearing love. But when there's a FULL turning to Christ, so that there is NOTHING... and NO ONE... else... BETWEEN one and him... in ANY way... well, one would be surprised at what they hear... and see.

Again, I wish you peace, dear one!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

With regard to the following two statements (I forget who wrote them), the events of King Manasseh will show the depth and magnitude of Jah’s forgiveness and grace. Please read the accounts and see how far a man can fall and yet be redeemed by Jah.





2 Kings 21:1-18:
Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. His mother’s name was Hephzibah. 2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. 3 He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had destroyed; he also erected altars to Baal and made an Asherah pole, as Ahab king of Israel had done. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. 4 He built altars in the temple of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, “In Jerusalem I will put my Name.” 5 In the two courts of the temple of the LORD, he built altars to all the starry hosts. 6 He sacrificed his own son in the fire, practiced divination, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger.
7 He took the carved Asherah pole he had made and put it in the temple, of which the LORD had said to David and to his son Solomon, “In this temple and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will put my Name forever. 8 I will not again make the feet of the Israelites wander from the land I gave their ancestors, if only they will be careful to do everything I commanded them and will keep the whole Law that my servant Moses gave them.” 9 But the people did not listen. Manasseh led them astray, so that they did more evil than the nations the LORD had destroyed before the Israelites.

10 The LORD said through his servants the prophets: 11 “Manasseh king of Judah has committed these detestable sins. He has done more evil than the Amorites who preceded him and has led Judah into sin with his idols. 12 Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I am going to bring such disaster on Jerusalem and Judah that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle. 13 I will stretch out over Jerusalem the measuring line used against Samaria and the plumb line used against the house of Ahab. I will wipe out Jerusalem as one wipes a dish, wiping it and turning it upside down. 14 I will forsake the remnant of my inheritance and give them into the hands of enemies. They will be looted and plundered by all their enemies; 15 they have done evil in my eyes and have aroused my anger from the day their ancestors came out of Egypt until this day.”

16 Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end—besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD.

17 As for the other events of Manasseh’s reign, and all he did, including the sin he committed, are they not written in the book of the annals of the kings of Judah? 18 Manasseh rested with his ancestors and was buried in his palace garden, the garden of Uzza. And Amon his son succeeded him as king.

And then at 2 Chronicles 33:1-20:

Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. 2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. 3 He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had demolished; he also erected altars to the Baals and made Asherah poles. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. 4 He built altars in the temple of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, “My Name will remain in Jerusalem forever.” 5 In both courts of the temple of the LORD, he built altars to all the starry hosts. 6 He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger.
7 He took the image he had made and put it in God’s temple, of which God had said to David and to his son Solomon, “In this temple and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, I will put my Name forever. 8 I will not again make the feet of the Israelites leave the land I assigned to your ancestors, if only they will be careful to do everything I commanded them concerning all the laws, decrees and regulations given through Moses.” 9 But Manasseh led Judah and the people of Jerusalem astray, so that they did more evil than the nations the LORD had destroyed before the Israelites.

10 The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention. 11 So the LORD brought against them the army commanders of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh prisoner, put a hook in his nose, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon. 12 In his distress he sought the favor of the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his ancestors. 13 And when he prayed to him, the LORD was moved by his entreaty and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD is God.

14 Afterward he rebuilt the outer wall of the City of David, west of the Gihon spring in the valley, as far as the entrance of the Fish Gate and encircling the hill of Ophel; he also made it much higher. He stationed military commanders in all the fortified cities in Judah.

15 He got rid of the foreign gods and removed the image from the temple of the LORD, as well as all the altars he had built on the temple hill and in Jerusalem; and he threw them out of the city. 16 Then he restored the altar of the LORD and sacrificed fellowship offerings and thank offerings on it, and told Judah to serve the LORD, the God of Israel. 17 The people, however, continued to sacrifice at the high places, but only to the LORD their God.

18 The other events of Manasseh’s reign, including his prayer to his God and the words the seers spoke to him in the name of the LORD, the God of Israel, are written in the annals of the kings of Israel.19 His prayer and how God was moved by his entreaty, as well as all his sins and unfaithfulness, and the sites where he built high places and set up Asherah poles and idols before he humbled himself—all these are written in the records of the seers.20 Manasseh rested with his ancestors and was buried in his palace. And Amon his son succeeded him as king.

You don't have to worry Shel, I am not seeing Peter or anyone for that matter.
I am simply pointing out why so many view Peter as the figure head of the Apostolic church.
It was the case even then, hence your point about Paul's comments about those claiming, "I am from Peter...".

I mean, the transfiguration episode does indeed highlight that Peter, John and James were privy to more than the rest.

And Peter couldn't have been given the Revelation "John" was given because he was already dead when John wrote it/had it on Patmos.

Man has proven to be much better at following the one they can see (perhaps especially the one who brought them the gospel of Christ), than listening to the One they can hear.


Peace,
tammy

I hear you, my dear brother P (mornin' and peace to you!)... but your last two comments are EXACTLY my point: Peter, James, and JOHN saw our dear Lord transfigured... as well as was privileged in other ways... and yet, OF these... JOHN was given the revelation. Why not Peter? Because he was already dead? No, dear one. Our dear Lord already KNEW who would receive it even before HE was put to death. How do we KNOW? Because he SAID that someone one of them would SEE him coming into his kingdom, receiving it, BEFORE they died!

JOHN was the one who saw it, dear one. And he told THEM (and Paul, who later told the Corinthians what John had told them - 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 - notice Paul said he "knew a MAN" who had experienced these things and NOT that he himself had done so! That man was JOHN who, when told to write the revelation was told to write what he HAD seen, WAS seeing, and WOULD yet see! John SAW our dear Lord receiving his kingdom WHEN IT HAPPENED... told the others shortly after, told PAUL after HE was called and introduced to them... and then WROTE about it many years later... when he received the REST of the visions).

So Peter COULD have received the revelation, at least the first part of it... or even ALL of (BEFORE he died had he been the one CHOSEN to receive it. He was not - JOHN was the one chosen for that privilege and he was there for EACH miracle Peter witnessed. He, however, showed himself STABLE in his faith... UNLIKE Peter!

To say one Apostle was more privileged than another and so worthy of being raised up OVER or MORE so than the others, then, is like saying one of US, although perhaps seeing or hearing more than some others is worthy of being raised up over... or more so... than the others. Which is absolutely NOT the case!

Even so, our dear Lord has just now directed me to share with YOU... that the words he spoke to Peter recorded by Lazarus at John 21:18 were said and ALSO applied ALSO to JOHN, and were fulfilled when he was imprisoned on Patmos. It was said to them ALL, individually. Only Peters account is recorded because Lazarus was allowed to OVERHEAR that particular time.

I hope this helps, my dear, dear brother in Christ!

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

I agree that none should be raised over another, but the fact is that is what happened.
Recall Paul writing that very admonishment to those that valued what they were taught because of their direct relationship with one apostle over another?
My point is, regardless of what Christ may or may not have wanted, it happened and it was natural for it to happen and the gospels and letters are examples of that.

One can argue that YOU view "John" in a higher way than Peter and Paul by the way you write about Him.

I don't think anyone is denying that it happened. We know it happened.


But it happened because men made it so, and not because Christ taught that it should be so.


That men built the 'church' upon Peter might tell them something about why the 'church' strayed from the Truth. Not knocking Peter... just knocking that the men who 'followed' Peter (or what they thought they knew of Peter) weren't listening to Christ (the Holy Spirit), Himself... nor being led by Him as they were not listening to HIM specifically... and that is how the 'church' did and taught so many false and reprehensible things in the name of Christ and of God.

"If you remain in me, you will bear much fruit. Apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5


Peace and love to you all, as our Lord gives peace!

tammy

If it DID, it wasn't by Christ, though, dear one (peace to you!), but by MEN. Which is exactly what our dear Lord said they were NOT to do! Do you recall when the mother of the two asked him to appoint one son to his right hand and the other to is left... what he said to HER? Did he LIE? If not, then how can we now even THINK he raised Peter above the others??



YES... AND his words to those who were SAYING, "I follow Paul... I, Peter.... I, Apollos!" There was a PROBLEM with that VERY thing occurring... because it should NOT have been. And I think that while the Apostles were ALIVE... they took steps to make sure it DIDN'T when it threatened to crop up. And then... they all died! And NOW look what we have: some, AGAIN, saying "I... Peter!"



And so, WE.. who hear HIM... are supposed to just accept it, even FOLLOW it... REGARDLESS of what HE wanted... and wants, dear one?? I don't understand... truly. I'm not sure what you're saying here.



But aren't WE supposed to be standing firm AGAINST what is "natural"... what we and others, as MEN, would do... want to do... and DO... as CHRIST says/wants us to do?? Paul was teaching judging. Examples of it are in the Bible. What, though, are WE to do? What did our dear Lord TELL them... and us... to do? Peter denied Christ? Do we do what Peter did... just because "Peter" did it? Paul judged. Do we... just because "Paul" did/said to do? Isn't that why JWs do it... because they follow PAUL... NOT Christ?

Who do we FOLLOW, dear one? Them? Or Christ?



(Shel shakes head rapidly)... Uh, what?? I don't view John higher, dear brother - not at ALL! I was just pointing out the lack of reason, rationale, and LOGIC... for thinking that PETER was "higher" than JOHN, if he was higher than ANYONE. I have been taught by our dear Lord that NONE of us are higher than any other: the last hour workers get the SAME "pay" as the FIRST hour workers... and the first hour workers the SAME "pay" as the LAST hour workers. Indeed, that is the POINT: while one may be given 5 minas/talents, he is no better than the one given only 2 minas/talents. And the one given only 2 no WORSE than the one given 5. So long as each SPEND their respective minas/talents, BOTH are well-regarded by the Master. It is the one who is only given ONE... but won't even spend that ONE... who is POORLY regarded.

So, even if Peter was given MORE (which I shared with you he was NOT), that doesn't mean he is raised up, raised over, put over, or more regard that OTHERS... by CHRIST. As our dear Lord said, "He that is LEASE is greatest AMONG you." Surely, his love and affection for LAZARUS shows that, yes? Because if ANYONE should have been given "more"... would it not have been the one our dear Lord loved... MORE? Or at least, had more AFFECTION for? Yet, Lazarus was not chosen to receive the Revelation.

All I'm asking you to do, dear, dear P... is think. Think... and LISTEN. Not to me... and not to any OTHER of mankind... but to the voice of the Fine Shepherd, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, the Son of GOD, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). Even if you CAN'T hear his voice directly, you CAN hear them through his recorded words. As you READ those words, try THEN to listen. Indeed, ask HIM to read them TO you. Ask HIM to grant you a portion of our Father's holy spirit, even a tiny bit, so you can HEAR him read them to you... so that you can get an ACCURATE sense - of what he SAID... and what HE meant. And as to whom.

Ask him... to open your ears, dear one, and your eyes. That's all. Just think, ask, and then listen.

I truly hope this helps and, as ALWAYS, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Ultimately, dear ones, the bottom line is that we believe what... and who... we WANT to. If we want to believe what man says... and we want to believe what particular men (or women) say... we will. If we don't, we won't. In the same vein, if we WANT to believe what CHRIST said/says... we will. No matter WHAT man says... or WHICH man (or woman) says it.

And no, it is not that we must believe man until we hear Christ's voice for ourselves. If we MUST, we can start by just reading what HE is recorded to have said... HIS words... ALL of them... alone. Perhaps even having a bit of faith and asking him to read TO us... and then putting faith in HIS words... no matter WHAT some other man... woman... says.

To do this, though, one REALLY MUST... tear it ALL down, the entire "house" that they have built... based on the teachings and interpretations of man... ALL of it, ALL the way down... to the Foundation Cornerstone. To the FIRST "block" that is placed... and from which the DIRECTION of ALL other "bricks" used to build... is determined.

Christ is the Foundation Cornerstone... and unless and until one gathers up the COURAGE... to completely demolish their "house"... the one THEY built... demolish it all the way back down... and them let HIM build... they will continue laying stones upon a CRUMBLING foundation (of the thoughts, interpretations, and teachings of men, who were NOT of the 12 and so NOT part of the TRUE foundation, but part of a CRUMBLING one). If so, what, though, when the storm comes and the wind blows?

Only the man whose "house" is built... BY and ON THE ROCK... which Rock is Christ... will stand. Every other "house" will yield... crumble... and be washed away... in the storm.

As always, peace... to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Amen to that, my sister!


Peace to you,

tammy

I will third that !!


Love to you all today,
Justmom

P.s. I am sitting on the couch bundled in my robe and blanket. I cannot get warm today. Was thinking of you Tammy and the snow. Hope all is well and safe.