xjwsforChrist

Dear, dear Shelby, I know you weren't "reaching", as you put it, to disagree with me. I know you disagree with me from the start! I think that must be obvious to everyone here!

Your problem is that you simply cannot accept or perhaps even understand that I too look at Christ alone. Further, you appear to think that only you and those who follow you in your abandonment of all and any kind of religion can be truly focused on Christ.

The fact that you alone do not have the sole truth of it is something that you simply can't stomach. You can tell yourself and others and anyone who'll believe you till you're blue in the face that I must be looking at something other than Christ since I am actively Catholic, but your determination to do so doesn't make it so.

The Watchtower loves nothing better than to paint the Catholic Church as an agent of evil, but that doesn't make it so. Yes, there are those within it who have sinned greatly, even against little children, and they will have their reward. But it is still the Church.

I totally understand where you're coming from, dear Abs (peace to you!). Sadly, it is the human "way" that causes this: mankind MUST have the FREEDOM to CHOOSE what to believe. Literally being made to believe something... or worship something... simply because your parents/others believe you should, demand that you do, ostracize, even kill you if you don't... should not be allowed. Look at the horrors that have been done as a result of that LACK of such freedom. I, personally, then, am glad I live in a country... and time... where the WTBTS is allowed to exist, SOLELY because that place and time allows me to believe as I wish/do... without fear of being killed, literally. Ostracized, well... I can handle that - I've never been a kind of person who WANTED to associate with people who don't want to associate with me. Not even family.

I realize that the WTBTS has found another way to "make" people believe as they wish them to... compulsion through fear of shunning and ostracizing, but they can't REALLY make one belief as they do. Not really. Folks only THINK they're being made. The WTBTS' "power" then, is really nothing more than smoke and mirrors... and only exists because the people IN it ALLOW it. If EVERYONE stood up and said, "No, uh-uh, we'll go out in FS and attend meetings, etc., but we're not shunning family anymore!" where would their power be? Gone. Dried up.

But the REALITY is that the WTBTS is GIVEN its power... by its people. Their CHOICE, which is what freedom of religion grants them. Which is... and SHOULD be... the right of ALL humans. Unfortunately... and very sadly... (1) we humans don't (all) always choose well... and (2) there are those who prey on that.

It's like many laws in this country. Say, anti-discrimination laws. Affirmative action. Certain labor laws. The "need" for unions (although, that one...). Someone, somewhere, somehow... harmed someone else and so in order to protects other's rights, no one in this country who, say, owns more then 4 units of rental housing... can rent just to whomever they wish. Fair housing laws apply and so they often have to admit folks they might not otherwise.

Same thing with religion: is we suppress one religion or belief system because WE think it's "bad"... who's to say that others won't seek to suppress one we think is "good"? Ours, even?

It is mankind's ways... desires... and choices... that create, allow, and foment religion. Including the WTBTS. Which is just another truth of life. We should take care, though, in where and how we want the GOVERNMENT to affect those ways, desires... and choices.

Doesn't make one feel better, no. But I would rather have the WTBTS allowed... than what I choose to believe deemed criminal. Which will occur one day. What they do... other religions do... are... believe... and what folks like me believe, do, and are. It will come to be considered criminal conduct. Just as atheism was once considered.

Peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellamar

Okay, dear Char (peace!). I mistook your words as to my "determination to achieve" [a] disagreement with you. Some might interpret that as "reaching." I did.



I am sure it is obvious, dear one, but not because I'm TRYING to. You aren't given me much to agree WITH. I am sure I'm not the only one to see that, though.



I don't have a problem with anything as to you, dear Char. Nothing at all. That you DON'T look to Christ alone... is manifest. You see, there is nothing standing in front of Christ, dear one. Nothing. Except what one PUTS in front of him. When one DOES (put something between him and them... even something they don't THINK they're putting there), well one can't look at Christ, let alone at Christ "alone." One has to look at what one has put IN FRONT of Christ. Which you have. But that's YOUR problem, not mine.



Well, no, I don't think that at all. First, no one is (and no one should be) following ME in my abandonment of all and any kind of religion. Although, I have to say that I DO find the "follow" comment curious, considering that only two people have openly stated that I am the VERY reason they came to THIS site... and you are one of them. That aside, I KNOW that one can only be focused on Christ if one is looking only at CHRIST... and nothing and no one else. I mean, that's even how it works in THIS world, right?

But more than that, you seem to overlook that you are asking folks to listen to YOU... versus listening to Christ (whom you admit you don't hear). Christ said that one cannot slave for/serve to masters... or they will love the one and hate the other. He didn't say, they MIGHT love one and hate the other. Or that they can love both, and hate neither. YOU, though, believe... and apparently wish others to believe... that you CAN slave for two masters, and love both. Who, though, do you suggest I/we listen to? Christ... or you?



I don't claim to be alone in having the sole truth. Heck, there are others elsewhere, even here, that have him. And I know this. The truth, though, is that it's your stomach that's having issues here. YOU cannot stomach me saying that I know Christ, hear him, have even seen him... and that according to HIM... I must quit touching the "unclean thing," which unclean thing includes your beloved... but harlotous... "church." That bothers YOU, not me, dear one. So, perhaps you should examine YOUR stomach. While you're doing that, consider taking a look at that heart, too. As I have asked you do before.



No, you're right (finally! Something we agree on!): my determination doesn't make it so. Your LOOKING at something other than Christ makes it so, dear one. I don't care if you're actively Catholic, dear Char. I didn't care before and don't care now. There are others here who can tell you that I've NEVER had a problem with their being Catholic... or whatever else they are. Because I don't CARE.

I DO care, though, when... where one, claiming to belong to Christ, points fingers at others' uncleanness and error while rolling in the muck with other unclean "things" and committing their own version of spiritual adultery... my Lord tells me that I must speak truth to them... always... whether they hear or refrain, but in the hopes that one day they WILL hear... and get the sense of it and see where they are as naked as those they're pointing their fingers at. I care about that and in such instances, yes.



And apparently, you love nothing better than to paint the WTBTS as such. See? See, this site is titled "xJWs FOR Christ." Why? Because while most of us here ARE exJWs or had some former association, etc., with JWs... we wanted to be able to talk about Christ... and what we were receiving from HIM... in relative freedom. Which you claim intrigued you, too, at some point. The reality, though, appears to be that you only want to talk about the WTBTS... and in a bad way... and about the RCC (in a good way). When folks DO talk about Christ... and what he says to them... you ridicule. Yet, you NEVER speak about Christ, dear Char. Never. Ever.

Why IS that, exactly? I will tell you why: it's very difficult to talk about someone one doesn't know. One cannot say GOOD things about someone they don't know... and it would be gossip, if not bearing false witness against, to say bad things (if one doesn't know the one they're speaking about).

YOU cannot talk about one YOU don't know, dear Char... and so you either have to point your comments in the direction of the WTBTS... or the RCC. And so long as it's in the direction of the WTBTS... and negative... or the RCC... and positive... you're good. Everything else seems to cause YOU "problems"... with YOUR "stomach." Although, again, I think it's actually your heart that's feeling the "pain."



No, the WTBTS' paint brush doesn't make the RCC evil. It's the RCC's own conduct and history that does that. That the WTBTS points it OUT... while wallowing in THEIR own dirt... only further exposes THEM as hypocrites. However, that the WTBTS' IS a haven of hypocrites... and unclean in ITS own filth... doesn't negate the RCC's similar situation. Nor does the fact that you "hate" the WTBTS and "love" the RCC. Both are unclean... and it just is what it is.

Yes, there are those within it who have sinned greatly, even against little children, and they will have their reward. But it is still the Church.

Dear Char... believe what you will. But please... as one of the people who, again, OPENLY stated that I am the reason they came here, what I post... and how they were drawn to it and how it resounded with them, etc.,... and is STILL here... please stop accusing others of following me. YOU literally did, as YOU stated. To accuse of others of doing so, and in a way that speaks poorly of THEM... while overlooking why YOU came here... is hypocrisy.

Examine your heart, dear, dear Char. Please.

Peace.

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar

Thanks for your reply above, Shel/appreciate and heading back to really read --- I agree it's not the freedom of religion but their hate seems to cross the line to be a religion and I know I'm off base here, but

Question -- the NWT is only known for being a good translation as far as the old testament and the new testament is not known for it's accuracy -- now I don't know but that's what I've read.

Sure wish I had one of those big concordances you're talking about and have enjoyed the pro/con debate going on. The small concordance is part of the NWT not a smaller version of the large version?

Any idea where I might locate one (large Concordance) to purchase?

Thanks.

Yes, Abstract! There are quite a few around!

Your best option, if you have a decent second-hand bookshop anywhere near you, would be to start out by looking there. There is an abundance of good Biblical Concordances around, and by far the cheapest way, because they are large books, is to look locally first.

Failing that, or if you want a brand new one, go to your nearest large bookshop. Or a Christian bookshop, if that is your preference.

Otherwise, if you can't find one locally, and if you don't mind a second hand Concordance, your best option is to go to http://www.abe.com .

Abe books is formed from an international collection of second-hand booksellers, from many countries. I did an initial search for you there and it offers many thousands of available options.

I advise you to search there. Each bookseller gives a good description of what they have, and Abe will adjust your search results however you choose. You can choose to have results graded according to country and price. You'll be able to find anything you want there.

Abstract, I just saw the large reference bible on ebay for a starting bid of 99 cents.

I had many translations of the bible, but when I left my marriage many years ago, the NWT large reference is the only one I took with me.

Your problem is that you simply cannot accept or perhaps even understand that I too look at Christ alone.


I don't have a problem with anything as to you, dear Char. Nothing at all. That you DON'T look to Christ alone... is manifest. You see, there is nothing standing in front of Christ, dear one. Nothing. Except what one PUTS in front of him. When one DOES (put something between him and them... even something they don't THINK they're putting there), well one can't look at Christ, let alone at Christ "alone." One has to look at what one has put IN FRONT of Christ. Which you have. But that's YOUR problem, not mine.



Yes, and how many years did it take some of us to realize that the WTBS was what was standing in between US and CHRIST?

The same way that the RCC is standing in between millions and CHRIST?

There is only ONE mediator! We do not SEE IT unless he allows us to. And the same NWT reference bible that I trusted my whole life was the same translation that my Lord used to show me the truth about the WTBS. Same Bible, just allowed CHRIST to interpret it versus MAN.

Everything else is unclean. Everything else we are told not to touch. Everything else has been tampered and twisted to support man and its control over sheep.

I mentioned before I think. Could we?....

Throw away EVERY bible on this planet....?

Walk away from EVERY religious institution on this planet....?

And would CHRIST then be ENOUGH FOR US? Could he be?... Does he tell us we need anything on earth over him?...

Wouldn't we need to able to HEAR him THEN?
Allow Holy Spirit to be the ONLY thing that teaches us?...

Where would our FAITH stand?
Where would walking by SPIRIT be?....

Truly a challenge huh?

.... But the biggest obstacle must be removed first. Earthly leaders.

Just a thought
Love Justmom
P.s. whose still tryin ...

I absolutely agree JustMom!

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Try here, dear Abstract (mornin' and peace to you!):

http://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Con ... B000EHMG4M

Given the cost of other concordances, the price ($17 or so) seems reasonable.

Peace!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellamar

Well, Abstract, all these ex-JW's seem to think that you actually want a NWT Concordance.

I assumed you wanted a real one. If you want a real one, Abe or your local bookshop is the place. If you want a JW one, well, don't listen to me, you'll need to pay heed to the JW's.

However, since this is an ex-JW forum for Christ, which, despite misleading comments above, does also actually include me, if nine months spent going publishing door to door, sometimes doing 30 hours a week, with just one month's gap due to physical injury, is anything to go by, as Shelby's long-time friend Armand told me, most definitely means that I am every bit as entitled to be here, as, say, Tammy (tec) the other co-owner of the site along with Shelby, since Tammy never got anywhere as near the JW's as I did, or, for instance, as my friend GL Tirebiter who, like me, (yes, I eventually saw sense) is a Catholic, but unlike me is here only for family reasons.

You wouldn't think any of that could be so if you if you pay heed to Shelby's tirade against me above, but you must judge the truth of the matter for yourself. Note Shelby's words to me "I know why you say you are here". Don't worry, Abstract and any visiting anonymous guests. Shelby knows my story very well. I wrote to her before I joined. It's been repeated on this forum times without number. She knows. She has, however, at her disposal all the verbal tools of the law school from which she walked before completing the course.

Few can compete. But then, few would want to.

Perhaps Char if you spoke simply as to Christ, (which you don't), as a member of the body, instead of the RCC, you might show some credulity? Just attacking the WTBS and Shelby doesn't really work here. It simply shows hypocrisy. Not a good look really.
Sorry.

Just sayin...


Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Oh! You listen in, do you?

Not that you judge, of course. After all, you, and various others, are Christian. Aren't you?

I pay attention to what is said here, yes, of course I do. If your loyalty was in Christ I assure you I would hear it.


Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

I try Char. I give it my best, from the bottom of my heart, with no one standing between me and Him. Honestly.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Now, see, dear Char (peace!), this. What you state above. I am sure everyone else here can see it, but apparently you cannot (could be that rafter) but since you can't, let me help you. Here is WHY we (ex-JWs) might think dear Abs (peace, dear one!) might actually want a NWT Concordance. Follow along, please, if you can:

FROM ABS:



You see, I... and I'm sure others... knew that dear Abs was referring to the large NWT Concordance. I realize that perhaps you think the one in the back of the NWT (small OR large) is the ONLY concordance... but that's not the case. The WTBTS actually publishes a separate, large "Comprehensive Concordance," as you can see by the link I posted.



Your... mmmmmm... lack of knowledge... is showing again, dear Char. A concordance is a concordance. All it is a source to locate scriptures/verses by various words contained in such. So, if one has associated with the WTBTS for any number of years... and is more familiar with the NWT (as opposed to other Bible versions), then one will most probably recall a word or two as stated in the NWT... and be able to use such to locate a verse. For example, one could not use the WTBTS Concordance to find the verse(s) that refer to the trinity. Oh, wait... silly me: one can't use ANY concordance... or Bible... even the "real" ones... to find such a verse.



Well, then, you have no excuse for not knowing which Concordance dear Abs WAS referring to... do you? I mean, seeing as you apparently consider yourself of "all these 'ex-JWs'", yes?



LOLOLOLOL! Ummmmm... I realize you actually need something to help you deflect and redirect others' attention from what I posted to and about you above, dear Char... but this won't work. Because I actually graduated. Got myself a Juris Doctorate degree and everything, yes, ma'am. And some here were present when I walked across the stage and received it... as well as the lovely congrats dinner after. Others know because I posted in on another forum when it occurred. So, if you're gonna misrepresent me you're gonna hafta find something else. This choice only makes you look... I dunno... desperate?



Of course, you don't count yourself among those few, though, yes? Thing is, I am not competing with anyone. Never have. Whether some (like perhaps your dear self) wish to compete with ME... well... for the life of me I can't imagine why. I mean, everyone must carry their own load... and answer for themselves. I do realize, though, that in addition to looking at religions... and having those stand between them and Christ... a lot of folks (including perhaps you) spend an awful lot of their lives looking at other people... at what they "do", how they do it, etc., and comparing their own lives... and faith... with that... rather than looking at Christ. They shouldn't, though. Life's way too short.

I don't live my life in comparison to others, dear Char... with the exception of one: Christ. That's it and that's all. He is the ONLY One I look at in determining how to live my life, what to believe, WHO to believe... and what not. I realize that that causes some (perhaps including you) a great deal of concern... but if they were looking at him, too, they probably wouldn't have so much to BE concerned ABOUT, at least with regard to me. They wouldn't even SEE what they THINK I think I "am"... or am "doing"/trying to "do", etc. They would only see HIM... and so my presence wouldn't make any real matter to them. It certainly wouldn't cause them the great amount of consternation it seems to cause some. They would merely think, "Well, to her own master she will stand... or she will fall. As for ME, though..." and move on.

Please... check your heart. And the direction of your gaze. You might have to turn your head a little... perhaps even look around that rafter to do that. But if you soften your heart... and your HEAD... and maybe make your stiff neck just a little more flexible... and look in the RIGHT direction, rather than at me... there is one who can help you extract it... and heal any "wounds" it may have caused.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar