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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:27 am 
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So, what IS His flesh? what IS His blood?
And how many times?
Once a day? Once a week, Once a year?

Perhaps I am not enplaning myself well enough and for that I apologize.

See, for me, everyday is a day to partake of Christ BUT I don't do it with a specific type of food.
Every solid is the body of Christ, every liquid is the blood of Christ.
I do make a special moment on the DAY of His Last Supper in which we use flat bread and wine, but every other day I simply use at least ONE meal as the meal in which I remember Him and "eat and drink" of Him.

My question is more of a curiosity about how you all do it.


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:44 am 
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PSacramento wrote:
So, what IS His flesh? what IS His blood?
And how many times?
Once a day? Once a week, Once a year?

Perhaps I am not enplaning myself well enough and for that I apologize.

See, for me, everyday is a day to partake of Christ BUT I don't do it with a specific type of food.
Every solid is the body of Christ, every liquid is the blood of Christ.
I do make a special moment on the DAY of His Last Supper in which we use flat bread and wine, but every other day I simply use at least ONE meal as the meal in which I remember Him and "eat and drink" of Him.

My question is more of a curiosity about how you all do it.





Good morning my brother PaulS and peace to you,

Just to answer for me personally, and in the beginning of my exiting days from the WTBS I still held on to baggage enough that I was not sure how often myself.

So my Lord showed me that I eat 2-3 times a day to sustain my physical flesh.
I realized to sustain my spirit was even MORE important. Then the example he used was by taking unleavened bread and wine to represent HIs body. This is not something I eat regularly with every meal. So separately I use unleavened crackers and wine. ( when my children were young I used grape juice) . He showed me the Israelites and asked me how often they ate manna in the wilderness and I realized it was daily. And since he is called the " continual daily sacrifice " I know that I need the benefit of this daily.
So for me it is daily personally. That is just what I have come to do.

Hope ths helps some,
Your sister and fellow slave of Christ, Kim


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:25 am 
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Quote:
So, what IS His flesh? what IS His blood?


The bread and wine that He gave his disciples AFTER they had eaten the passover meal. So it was the general meal itself... but the bread and wine that our Lord specifically set AS his body and his blood.

That is my understanding.


Quote:
And how many times?
Once a day? Once a week, Once a year?


My understanding is every day.

For one, every day is a day FOR Christ and God, and every day we serve them, not ourselves. For two, the prayer that Christ taught us has in it "Give us our daily bread". DAILY bread, and Christ is the bread that comes down from heaven, the TRUE manna. Just as the Israelites ate the manna DAILY to sustain them in the wilderness; we eat of Christ DAILY to sustain us in the wilderness.

What I have found is that I hear Him and remain in Him... more clearly and fully... if I do partake every day (and on occasion, He has also woken me to partake then and there).


Partaking of Him is also partaking of the daily sacrifice (written about in Daniel 12:11... NIV version. The NWT calls this the constant feature). Not a sacrifice we make to God (like the Israelites made sacrifices to God, or other religions did to their gods). But the sacrifice that CHRIST made. HIS sacrifice which we partake of DAILY.





Quote:
My question is more of a curiosity about how you all do it.



Gotcha! Hopefully the above helps as pertains to me.

I do use wine, though the one time years ago that I did partake with my children, I used juice. For the bread, I have bought crackers not made with yeast. On occasion, I will make my own - just flour and water, but I know I will not do that every day (and it really does not last longer than a day or two), so I do not want to NOT partake just because I do not want to bake that day.

It matters most that we OBEY, even if all we had available was water and some sort of bread/solid food.


Peace to you Paul,
your sister, and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Must it be wine and unleavened bread?
I mean, wine was used in those days because it was healthier than water and the bread was the pass over bread, so...
John doesn't even mention it as a pass over meal per say and if it is the symbolism that matters, then can any bread or any liquid ( water perhaps) be ok?


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:24 pm 
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If what you have is 'any bread or liquid' (like water for instance), then I cannot see why that would not be acceptable. Not if what you WANT to do is obey our Lord, and you recognize the 'bread and liquid' as being His body and blood.


To obey is better than sacrifice, and our Lord is not so exacting.


Of course, if one can use what He said to use (or used Himself as an example for us), then I don't know why one would not. But better to obey and partake, than to forgo partaking because one does not have the 'right' bread and wine.


He reminds me also that He changed water into wine at the wedding.


And at the meal, he took the bread and said 'this is my body, take and eat..." and then took the wine and said, "this is my blood, take and drink."

Peace to you Paul,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:28 pm 
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While our dear Lord did hold out unleavened bread and wine, dear P (peace to you, luv!), he did not say, "He that eats unleavened bread and drinks wine... will have everlasting life." He said that he that feeds on HIS flesh and drinks HIS blood would do so. SO, if one does not HAVE unleavened bread... or (new) wine... then one would just need to discern that what they ARE eating and drinking represent his flesh and blood.

BUT... if one COULD have/use unleavened bread (representing his CLEAN - without hypocrisy or guile) flesh... and his blood from the VINE that he is ("I am the TRUE Vine)... why would one not endeavor to use those... do "JUST so"? He's not asking us to get up on a cross/pole/stake and have our hands and feet nailed to it. He's asking that we take a bite of unleavened bread and a sip of (new) wine... DAILY ("Give our bread FOR THE DAY" - surely, you don't eat bread every day and even if you do, not ALL do - I certainly don't)... bread.

As dear 'Mom and tec (peace, luvs!) shared above... how often do you feed your FLESH? Yet, our dear Lord said:

"The FLESH... is of NO use, at ALL."

Yes?

Why, then, would someone claiming to love HIM... put the "call" of their FLESH (and it does call when it's hungry, does it not?) over HIS call (to eat HIS flesh and drink HIS blood)? Why call him "Lord, Lord"... yet not DO what he SAYS?

And that's the problem with most folks: they cry that THEY don't/can't hear him speak. Dear one, they don't even listen when they READ what he says, let alone when he TELLS them.

But: He that is FAITHFUL... full of faith... in what is LEAST (i.e., eating a bit of unleavened bread/drinking a sip of wine)... is faithFUL... in MUCH. Faith(ful)... to the PRESERVING ALIVE of one's SPIRIT.

Physical food preserves alive the vessel of flesh... but only for a time. OBEDIENCE to the Son of God... to HIS commands... is what preserves alive FOR ETERNITY. Because it is due to faith... THAT we LISTEN... and OBEY... at ALL.

I hope this helps, luv, truly!

Peace to you and your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:35 am 
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See, that is just the thing...
We know that Our Lord was not advocating cannibalism, ( even though some thought so), so that means He was speaking of "eating His flesh and drinking His blood" in a symbolic way, correct?
The RCC believes in the transubstantiation of the "holy host", that the communion wafer and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ.
Are they correct?
Or is the "eating and drinking" of Christ an analogy for taking in His Word, ALL that He is in the most complete way possible?
John 3:16 states that:
Quote:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Not that all who believe AND are baptized AND eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, will have eternal life.
BUT, as this thread has shown and John 6 states,
Quote:
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


How do we reconcile this?


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:51 am 
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We reconcile it by understanding that it is not cannibalism... because HIS flesh is not the same USB STRANGER as OUR flesh , dear one ( peace to you! ). OUR flesh is flesh with IT'S blood. Physical sinew... which holds sin... and so corruption... and so DEATH in it.

HIS flesh has HOLY SPIRIT... JAH'S blood... in it. And so there is NO sin... so no CORRUPTION ... so no DEATH... IN it. When we PARTAKE of HIS flesh and blood, then, we are, IN ESSENCE... REPLACING... OUR flesh and blood... which lead to death... with HIS flesh and blood. Which lead to LIFE. Because we are SYMBOLIZING taking him INTO ourselves and TEPLACING ourselves... OUR (temporary) "life" with HIS ETERNAL life.

We are doing this literally, though. We are doing it SYMBOLICALLY. What we are LITERALLY doing is (1) "eating manna," the "BREAD from heaven" that his flesh IS... which he has NOW given us in the form of unleavened bread... versus the "hoarfrost"-like substance given to Israel; and (2) splashing the blood of the Lamb that HE is on the "doorpost" of OUR "house"... the vessel of flesh that we NOW "occupy/dwell in" in SPIRIT... Our fleshly bodies. Which bodies are LIVING STONES in the temple... or HOUSE... dwelling place... OF God.

Because if we OBEY his commands he AND GOD... COME... and make their dwelling... in SPIRIT... IN us. As they do with ALL who love them. They KNOW who love them... by who OBEY them. Pay ATTENTION to the following words and LISTEN to what he is SAYING so as to FULLY GRASP what he MEANS:

"Whoever LISTENS to my commandments and DOES them is the one who LOVES me. In turn, whoever loves ME will be loved by my FATHER, and I will love HIM and will plainly SHOW myself to him.” Judas, not Is·car′i·ot, said to him: “Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself plainly to us and not to the world?”

In answer [Jesus] said to him: “If anyone loves ME, he will DO my word, and my Father will love HIM, and WE WILL COME TO HIM and make OUR dwelling IN him. Whoever does NOT love me does NOT observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not MINE, but belongs to the FATHER who SENT me."
John 14:23

Do you SEE, dear one? It's not about looking for ways OUT of doing "just so." It's about SHOWS your LOVE for him... by DOING just so!

And he's not asking us to do something MAJOR... or even PUBLICLY... although LOVE for him should PROMPT us to do so publicly. To WANT to do so publicly.

Because we are not ASHAMED of him.... ARE we? Before men? Are we not of those who WANT to declare him... Our LOVE for him... our UNION with him... PUBLICLY? Before men? Before ALL mankind... even those who might OPPOSE? Even those who claim to love US?

But if we DON'T love him....or are ASHAMED of him... or ashamed to be known to others as in UNION with him... then we will not only beg off... but try to DENY... if not JUST IF why we DON'T need to obey THIS command.

If you can't hear and receive HIS words contained in the Bible on this matter, dear one, perhaps you can hear and receive mine as to them. Make NO mistake, though: I heard and received them from HIM.

I hope this helps, truly!

As always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:15 am 
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So unless we do partake and eat of His flesh and blood we will NOT have eternal life?


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:40 am 
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PSacramento wrote:
So unless we do partake and eat of His flesh and blood we will NOT have eternal life?


Our Lords words were...

Jhn 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Or,

Jhn6:53 NWT " Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life within yourself".

It is by obeying and listening to our Lord and what he says is how one has life within oneself. Belonging to him as part of HIS body. His body are the ones that are raised or resurrected at the first resurrection when our Lord returns. ( when they are considered born again in spirit/ given white robes of spirit bodies) These are because they have life within themselves. HIS LIFE! They are His brothers, His bride, His body!

Versus those that are NOT!

Do you understand the difference between those that belong to him/ his body those that have life within themselves verses those that are not?
Those that are sheep that gain eternal life as doing " good to the least of Christs brothers" ?
But are not his brothers? Do not partake of the first resurrection?


Just asking my brother, hope this helps some.
Love and peace to you as well,
Your sister and fellow slave of our Lord Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:21 am 
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Justmom wrote:
PSacramento wrote:
So unless we do partake and eat of His flesh and blood we will NOT have eternal life?


Our Lords words were...

Jhn 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Or,

Jhn6:53 NWT " Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life within yourself".

It is by obeying and listening to our Lord and what he says is how one has life within oneself. Belonging to him as part of HIS body. His body are the ones that are raised or resurrected at the first resurrection when our Lord returns. ( when they are considered born again in spirit/ given white robes of spirit bodies) These are because they have life within themselves. HIS LIFE! They are His brothers, His bride, His body!

Versus those that are NOT!

Do you understand the difference between those that belong to him/ his body those that have life within themselves verses those that are not?
Those that are sheep that gain eternal life as doing " good to the least of Christs brothers" ?
But are not his brothers? Do not partake of the first resurrection?


Just asking my brother, hope this helps some.
Love and peace to you as well,
Your sister and fellow slave of our Lord Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim


So the RCC were right all along?

See, here is the thing with proof texting:
Just in John alone:

Quote:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Note it doesn't say believe and eat of My Flesh and Drink of My Blood.

And:
John 5:
Quote:
22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Nowhere does it mention eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood.


Now, I am in agreement that we should partake of the "body and blood of Christ", I think that part is quite clear.
What I am disagreement with is that there is no eternal life WITHOUT partaking.

For our salvation and eternal life to be based on whether or not we partake ( and according to some HOW and with what), seems to me the be in contradiction of the sacrifice that Our Lord gave for Us.
It seems to imply that by doing THIS we are saved and have eternal life and I simply don't think that is the case.
It is OUR BELIEF in Christ as Son of God, saviour and redeemer, that saves Us, that anoints us with the Holy Spirit.
It is not due to anything we DO, but what was DONE for Us by Our Lord.

We can't use that text in John 6 as absolute proof because we have more in John that states that is not the case, that BELIEF is what is required.

So, what is John 6 about then?

IMO, here is the crucial part:
Quote:
Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30 So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”


He is the bread of Life, His words, His spirit, His body, all that would be given up FOR US to SAVE US.
To "eat and drink of Him' is to take in all that He is, His words, His teachings and His Spirit.

In the Gospels Christ says to do this ( partake of the last supper) not for eternal life BUT in remembrance of Him and ALL that He is, of His sacrifice and pain and death for Us.
Anything we do, pales in comparison, anything we "eat" means nothing without what HE DID.

I partake out of Love for Him and His sacrifice, every time I "break bread" I remember Him, NOT because I want eternal life or because I will have eternal life if I do "this and that", BUT because I love Him and what He did for Us so that we don't "have to do" anything other than Believe.


This is MY view and how I understand it.


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:03 am 
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Paul said...

Now, I am in agreement that we should partake of the "body and blood of Christ", I think that part is quite clear.

What I am disagreement with is that there is no eternal life WITHOUT partaking.

I don't think anyone has said that you can not be granted life without partaking. The sheep are granted life by how they treat Christs BROTHERS, but they are NOT his brothers. His brothers eat and drink and obey what their Lord tells them to do to have life within themselves, remain in union as HIS body/ HIS brothers/ HIS bride, partake in the FIRST resurrection and have the opportunity to be kings and priests. The others do not. They are subjects.

For our salvation and eternal life to be based on whether or not we partake ( and according to some HOW and with what), seems to me the be in contradiction of the sacrifice that Our Lord gave for Us.
It seems to imply that by doing THIS we are saved and have eternal life and I simply don't think that is the case.

We can't use that text in John 6 as absolute proof because we have more in John that states that is not the case, that BELIEF is what is required.

What about obedience to what HE SAYS?


In the Gospels Christ says to do this ( partake of the last supper) not for eternal life BUT in remembrance of Him and ALL that He is, of His sacrifice and pain and death for Us.

But my brother is that all he said?....


"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me."


I think here what our sister Shelby shared is pertinent to this...

And therein lies the rub, dear P. We can (offer up) "sacrifices"... including good works... all the day long. THAT, however, will only make us SUBJECTS of the kingdom, as part of those "sheep" who are separated and granted LIFE... and entry into the kingdom (verses goats, who are cut off from entry). It will NOT make us part of the "royal priesthood"... the people for a SPECIAL possession... who rule WITH Christ as king-priests: those who are of his BODY... HIS "Bride", the NEW "city" of double peace, Jerusalem.

But to OBEY... is BETTER than sacrifice. And so those who are members of his BODY... ARE such... BECAUSE they obey (him). They put their FAITH IN him... and so, rather than question... or look for loopholes/justification as to why NOT do something that he said... LITERALLY.... they OBEY. And do... "just so."

Which includes... yet many reject... washing one another's feet. HE did it... and SET THE PATTERN for US (to do).



So for me personally, I must try my best to do just so! What did our Lord say and do! And what does his voice still tell me to do?

It may seem to be a little thing to many and not important but I sure wouldn't want to try and explain why I didn't when I know better. That's all,
Love and peace my brother, Kim


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:27 am 
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Dear, dear P... peace to you and C'MON, brother! Stop looking for LOOPHOLES! You are truly showing yourself to be "Israel"... and very much like the disciples of our Lord's day in the flesh - LOLOLOL! Let's look at what you posted/ask:

Quote:
So the RCC were right all along?


About partaking of Christ's flesh and blood? Yes, luv! MOST "christian" religions observe that "ritual", dear one. Few understand what it TRULY means, however. Even so, ALL "christian" religions have SOME truth in them. Else... again... the children of (the) Light would not be ATTRACTED to them. They would not be ABLE to mislead (if possible) even us! That they have SOME truth, however, does not negate where they go WRONG! They do THAT... by setting up leaders, teachers, "fathers" in themselves... then misleading people to follow THEM... rather than follow Christ and Christ ALONE. But they have to have SOME truth in order to DO that.

Now, if you want to take this ONE thing as a reason to follow the RCC, by all means DO so. But then, those who now understand that there is not TRINITY should take THAT to follow the WTBTS. And those who believe in the resurrection to follow Lutherans. And those who believe in baptism to follow baptists. Etc., etc. Because they ALL have SOME truth. Only CHRIST, however, has ALL truth... and NONE of ALLOW you to follow ONLY him. They SAY you are doing that, by following THEM... but that really isn't the TRUTH. Because if you are following HIM... you do not need ANYONE (else)... to be TEACHING you.

Quote:
Note it doesn't say believe and eat of My Flesh and Drink of My Blood.


Smile. No, it doesn't. What DOES it say, though?

"... that whoever believes in Him shall not perish..."

How can one say they BELIEVE in someone... whose WORDS they don't LISTEN to??????? Do you not remember our dear Lord's words:

"WHY do you call me 'LORD, LORD'... but DO NOT DO the THINGS I SAY?"

and...

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but [b]only the one who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven."[/b]

What was/is that WILL?

"This is my SON, the beloved. LISTEN to HIM."

But wait, didn't such ones BELIEVE in him? Didn't they do "works" to show that? Perhaps. Yet:

"Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

Why would he say that, that HE never knew THEM? BECAUSE, luv, he SAID:

"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you."
John 15:4-7

and so...

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me." John 6:56, 57


Nowhere does it mention eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood.

In THAT verse, no. But he said THAT... BEFORE he said the other. The disciples were to KEEP UP with him, though (which many didn't/couldn't). And those who DID... received MORE. More truth, more understanding. For example, when he TOLD them that they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood, many were STUMBLED... and so went OFF... BEFORE he could explain FURTHER just what he MEANT (not his literal flesh, but that he would give them representations). Because they didn't follow THROUGH, they lost OUT. Because they didn't get the FULL story. You, by focusing on what he said FIRST... rather than hanging on a sec, continuing with him, FOLLOWING him to what he said NEXT... then NEXT... are putting yourself... and your household... in harm of losing out, too, luv.

We're supposed to FOLLOW the Lamb... WHEREVER he goes! Stopping at what he said FIRST... like those who stumbled when he told them they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood... is NOT following him... WHEREVER he goes! It's STUMBLING... and STOPPING!

Quote:
Now, I am in agreement that we should partake of the "body and blood of Christ", I think that part is quite clear.
What I am disagreement with is that there is no eternal life WITHOUT partaking.


I think you misunderstand: NO ONE has said that, en totale. There is no eternal life for those of his BODY... WITHOUT partaking. They will not be part of HIM. There IS life, however, for those who are "sheep", those who do "good" to Christ, by means of doing good to those of his BODY. The thing is, he is SPEAKING to those OF his Body... NOT those who are NOT of it. Each one must decide WHICH they are: sheep of his Body and so brothers and co-rulers with him... or SUBJECTS of that rule.

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For our salvation and eternal life to be based on whether or not we partake ( and according to some HOW and with what), seems to me the be in contradiction of the sacrifice that Our Lord gave for Us.


Perhaps you need to revisit... and discern... who you mean by "we" and "US," dear one. If you are meaning members of his BODY... then you are not accurately understanding who "we" and "us" might be.

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It seems to imply that by doing THIS we are saved and have eternal life and I simply don't think that is the case.


It is by FAITH that we are saved, luv. But we cannot declare that we HAVE faith... IF WE DO NOT DO WHAT THE ONE IN WHOM WE CLAIM WE HAVE SUCH SAYS.

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is OUR BELIEF in Christ as Son of God, saviour and redeemer, that saves Us, that anoints us with the Holy Spirit.


That belief is not to be a "dead" one, though, luv. As James said, "Faith without works is DEAD." Those works are DOING what Christ SAID to do. We are, then, to be NOT just HEARERS... but DOERS... of what the Word SAYS. Hence, as James also said:

"Show me your faith APART from works... and I'll show you MY faith... BY my works."

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It is not due to anything we DO, but what was DONE for Us by Our Lord.


Not so, luv. We DEMONSTRATE our faith IN what he DID... BY what WE... DO. The demons BELIEVE. They KNOW he is the Son of God. They KNOW he gave his life for us. So what, they know and believe? Not gonna get them eternal LIFE.

We can't use that text in John 6 as absolute proof because we have more in John that states that is not the case, that BELIEF is what is required.

You misunderstand. And you do so... because you want to "contend"... rather than do "just do." Because doing "just so" will undermine what you currently believe (is true). But that's what Christ is ABOUT, dear one: overturning STRONGLY entrenched things (beliefs). He did it for those Israelites who listened to Moses, those who listened to the Prophets, many first century Jews, many since... and now, for US. We, ALL of us, had some things... erroneous things... STRONGLY entrenched in us, in our "belief systems"... put there by others. Others who do NOT know him... or what he meant, means... or wants.

When one turns to HIM, though, and STOPS leaning upon their OWN understanding... THEN one can be led... BY the Light that HE is... into ALL truth. One can choose, however, to stay in darkness. Israel often stayed there... by there constant contending. We can do so, as well.

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So, what is John 6 about then?


In a nutshell: the flesh if of NO use at all, and all the attention we pay TO it is for nought. On the other hand, the SPIRIT is what gives life... and we GET life... FOR our spirits... by eating SPIRITUAL food and drinking SPIRITUAL drink. Just as our flesh gets (temporary) life by eating physical food and drinking physical drink. The food that sustains our SPIRITS, however... the TRUE food and TRUE drink... is HIS flesh and HIS blood. If we want to LIVE, then, we must EAT his flesh and DRINK his blood. As he said, "Come to ME... and DRINK!" But he didn't mean that symbolically - he meant that LITERALLY - that we MUST eat and drink from HIM. Since we could not do so FROM his literal flesh and blood (because these were going WITH him!)... he gave us REPRESENTATIONS to use. When we PARTAKE of them, therefore, we DECLARE our FAITH... IN HIS RESURRECTION. That he DID die... yet LIVES... and in the same way WE, although we might die... can and will LIVE. So, EACH time we partake, we are declaring his DEATH... and our FAITH in his resurrection FROM that... UNTIL he returns... to do the same for US.

Now, we can SAY we believe he died and was resurrected, yes. OR... we can DEMONSTRATE that we believe it... EXERCISE our faith... by DOING what HE said would DEMONSTRATE that faith. It really is that simple, luv. To OBEY... is BETTER... than to sacrifice.

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IMO, here is the crucial part:

He is the bread of Life, His words, His spirit, His body, all that would be given up FOR US to SAVE US.
To "eat and drink of Him' is to take in all that He is, His words, His teachings and His Spirit.


Yes! But what you have apparently not quite discerned YET... is that he IS the TREE... of LIFE. From which Adham, Eve, spirit beings, and ALL mankind MUST eat... in order to live... FOREVER. NOT die.

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In the Gospels Christ says to do this ( partake of the last supper) not for eternal life BUT in remembrance of Him and ALL that He is, of His sacrifice and pain and death for Us. Anything we do, pales in comparison, anything we "eat" means nothing without what HE DID.


Okay, then! If he said to DO it... then why look for reasons NOT to do so? Why not just DO it... in FAITH? Because he SAID to... THEN worry about the "why" (which he WILL reveal)????

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I partake out of Love for Him and His sacrifice, every time I "break bread" I remember Him, NOT because I want eternal life or because I will have eternal life if I do "this and that", BUT because I love Him and what He did for Us so that we don't "have to do" anything other than Believe.

This is MY view and how I understand it.


YES! YES!!!! And in THIS, YOUR view here, is the CORRECT one: we should do it... BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM. Hence, many who DO it, are doing it for the WRONG reason, NOT our of LOVE... OR faith... because they "want" something FROM him! And these are the ones of whom he will say "I never knew YOU!". Because their union is not pure, not based on LOVE... and obedience OUT of love... but out of selfish desire.

HOWEVER, to claim to KNOW him... and NOT do it... is a LACK of love... and a lack of faith. And what will those who LACK faith receive?

I hope this helps, dear, dear brother, truly! You... and anyone else who needs it!

As always, peace to you... and to your dear, dear household!

YSSF of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:47 am 
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Shel, I am NOT looking for "loopholes" so as to not partake.
I believe I made it clear that I do, as does my family, everyday when we say "grace" and a very special time when it is the anniversary of Our Lord's last supper.

My point and issue is the implication that we MUST do this TO HAVE eternal life.

I do not agree with that based on the context of what "john" wrote in chapter 6 ( as I explained above) and everywhere else where it is stated that belief in HIM and His SACRIFCE, belief in HIM as LORD, is all that is needed AND more especially from what I hear from HIM personally.

You know that I rarely bring up the conversations that Our Lord and I have, they are intensely personal to me and that is why I don't.

BUT reading this thread I got the implication ( as did some others that come here simply to "see") there is no eternal life ( salvation) unless we partake, which seems to imply that salvation is based on what we DO and not what HE DID.

I said to myself, " Am I reading this right? am I understanding this to be what is implied?" and I heard : Ask Paul, don't be afraid to ask, ASK them if that is what they believe.
So I decided to ask BUT before that I ask Our Lord and He said, " Is my love so weak, my sacrifice so little that those that truly believe in ME NEED to do anything to receive that gift?"
I said No, Lord of course not.
He said, " Don't be afraid, share your views, your understanding, your concerns because you are in fellowship with them and that is what it means".
I asked Him, " what if they don't agree or what if..." this is where He interrupted and said, " IF?", "really Paulo ??"
I understood and that is why I posted here.

The first thing I ever asked Him was, "what can I do to be worthy of this gift that you have given me?"
I knew I was undeserving, I KNEW HOW undeserving I was.

He always replied, " My Child, Paulo, love Me as I love you, allow Me and Our Father to be with you, don't shut Us out, that is all YOU have to do, the rest will make itself clear to you".


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 Post subject: Re: John 6:48-58
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:08 pm 
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16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Note it doesn't say believe and eat of My Flesh and Drink of My Blood.


It also does not say believe and also do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit... but we know not to do this because He said elsewhere that this is the unforgivable sin.

That being said... I do not know how one who DOES belong to Him, by means of holy spirit and so in UNION with Him (not just a disciple/follower)... CAN blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. The spirit in them would not allow it, or would at least protest VERY 'loudly', warning them against it.


But if you believe, but do not DO what He has said... then what good is that? Do you TRULY believe IN Him? Have you truly put your faith IN Him? Not just in His existence... but in HIM. Because IF you believe- and so love - then you DO what He commands, as He has said ("Anyone who loves me will obey my commands..."). But there are also those who Christ does not permit inside the Kingdom who SAY, "Lord, Lord". They believed. But He SAYS to them to get away from Him; He never knew them.

And these words of our Lord are pretty straightforward:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matt 7:21


The will of His Father is that we "Listen to Him." (Listen to His Son, whom He loves) Because that is what His Father SAID.

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24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


These two verses here speak of the two different resurrections. Those who take part in the first (resurrection) receive no judgment. They already crossed over from death to life, they already have life in them because CHRIST is in them. The second refers to those who take part in the second (resurrection), coming out of their tombs (and those who do die but are in union with Christ are under the altar)... good deeds to life, evil deeds to judgment.

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Now, I am in agreement that we should partake of the "body and blood of Christ", I think that part is quite clear.


Yes it is, and so you also DO what Christ says to do, and yes you do so out of love. ("If anyone loves me, they will do as I command...").

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What I am disagreement with is that there is no eternal life WITHOUT partaking.


There is no eternal life without eating of Christ. We do so NOW because He said to do so, and if love Him, we will do as He commands. No matter how small we think that is, because if one cannot be faithful in the small things, if one cannot hear the small things, if one cannot DO the small things, how can one be faithful, or hear or do, the 'big' things?

If we do not do as He says, then do we truly love Him? Do we truly believe in Him?

In the Kingdom, the food that we eat IS Christ, the Holy Spirit (as Shelby shared earlier, and as the angels also do... HE is the LIFE). So that everyone in the kingdom will eat of Him and by means of Him, LIVE. But those who do so NOW, already HAVE life in them. Because HE, the LIFE, is IN them. ("whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them") They have crossed over from death to life, because they are IN Christ.

We also know that others WILL enter the Kingdom. The sheep, those who did good to the least of Christ's brothers, and so actually do good to Him. Those who have shown that the law (of love) is written on their hearts, manifested in this that they DO to His brothers. These also will eat of Christ in the Kingdom (the leaves of the tree, and the fruit that it bears), and be healed, and live eternally. But these ones are not in union with Christ now... and do not have Christ in them now... and have not crossed over from death to life; they are invited in on the basis of the mercy and love that they show to Christ (by showing such things to even the least of His brothers)

But right now for those who would be in union with Him, his words are:

"Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

He said something else in that passage, when his many disciples (those who would have said Lord Lord) began to grumble upon hearing this teaching from Him.

"Yet there are some of you who do not believe."

They turned away and so did not obey, because they did not truly believe.

Just because one SAYS they believe that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, the Truth, the Life, the Resurrection... does not mean they truly DO believe this. Else, they would obey all He says to them. Because they would know that He has the words of eternal life.

"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."



He did not say to his twelve that eating his flesh and blood meant listening to his words and teachings only. When He said, 'the words I have spoken to you are spirit'... that does not mean that the words He spoke are symbolic or metaphorical of simply listening to His word. How can one even claim to BE listening and 'feeding' off Him if one is not DOING what He said to DO?

He later instituted what He DID mean for them to do here and now by his words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood- in partaking of the bread and the wine, that is His flesh and blood.



Are you afraid for those of your loved ones who do not partake of Him? Sometimes that is what causes us to fight against something he said and search for another meaning. Not saying you are doing that, or even that you have to respond to it. Just something to think about... if not for you, then perhaps another who is reading.

Peace to you and to yours,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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