xjwsforChrist

Funny, Paul (?) wrote something to the Ephesians (and several others wrote similarly as to Israel) that I find most interesting (peace to you, all!):

"So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts." Ephesians 4:17-19

That was the NIV. Here it is from the Jerusalem Bible:

So this I say to you and attest to you in the Lord, do not go on living the empty-headed life that the gentiles live. Intellectually they are in the dark, and they are estranged from the life of God, because of the ignorance which is the consequence of closed minds."

Hoo-whee. Estranged from the LIFE of God (which could mean Christ, since HE is the Life [of God]). But I won't go there. I'll just say that it seems to ME that if God is LOVE... and I fully believe He is... and one can be separated from His LIFE... however one wants to interpret that... stands to reason that such one would ALSO be separated from His... wait for it... love. I mean, it looks like PAUL (or whoever wrote the letter to the Ephesians FOR him) thought so.

But what do I know? I mean, I'm just going by what the letter SAID. And it was entirely in context (although I didn't quote it ALL so as not to offend anyone. But it wasn't about WHO... but about WHAT: being outside... or SEPARATE from God... and thus, from His love.

Interesting. SO glad I didn't make up those words, though.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar

Yes, Justmom. And there you have an example of how a literal fundamentalist approach can obscure the greater picture.

Jehovah's Witnesses are at root merely literal fundamentalists with the twists put there by Charles Russell and Joseph Rutherford, just as there are people nowadays who build on that and put their own twists on it all.

Jehovah's Witnesses are blind as to God's message through Christ, as are many others. They focus in the snippets. They study in detail the very bark in the trees, so to speak, and lose sight of the large forest. Others following after them know that method and continue it.

It's easy to make any little bits of phrases or even sentences mean whatever the writer wants them to mean to get their own message across. That's why Jehovah's Witnesses and other fundamentalist groups too love that method of arguing, even, if they are or were JW's, calling it reasoning. Their ultimate challenge to someone who shows them an alternative point of view is "show me". "Show me from the Bible where such and such is not so." "Show me proof of what you say". Naturally, they thereby confound a listener who doesn't know their Bible in that fashion. The JW at the door is trained to the hilt in their pernicious form of "reasoning" and many current JW's first came into the Watchtower from having failed to hold up what they knew to be true in the face of a bombardment of snippets in exactly that sort of situation. Random texts mislead, but can be very hard to counter.

It takes a very decent JW or ex-JW indeed, at that point, to then listen to what another is saying, or even to go back to the Bible and read it through, seeing the greater picture. Preferably with a non-Watchtower and non-fundamentalist study aid giving accurate and scholarly information as to what was written when, who it was who chose to eliminate some books from the Bible and what the political reasons for that were, whether all of a book was actually written by the person whose name it bears, and so on. Things are not always what the fundamentalists teach you. Far from it.

Justmom, you are right in many respects, especially where you say we have a choice. We do indeed, by the greatness of God's love and mercy. But here's the thing with God; he IS merciful! He always, always, leaves the way open for repentance. His love is indeed without limits, without end, and those who will tell you otherwise, if they have full knowledge, are telling you false, and feeding you lies.

Mostly, such people are not truly culpable, because they themselves have once upon a time been victims of this kind of argument, but so long ago that they've forgotten.

In the case of God's love for all His Creation, including all mankind, I stand by what I said. Bits of Bible text that seem to assert that I am wrong make no difference, because the Bible's overall message is of the limitless love of God. (Yes, there are some people who turn their faces against Him, and that is not surprising given the quality of human witness they see about them. It is only God who can and will judge them, and what he chooses to happen to them will still give room for repentance. No more on that now).

This morning, in Mass, this conversation came to mind. One of the readings we had was from the Book of Wisdom, one that sadly most of you won't know since the abridged version of the Bible that you're familiar with doesn't include it. You can find it in the Jerusalem Bible online. For those who can't be bothered to check, I'll copy a bit of it here, bearing in mind that of course I don't expect one short extract from the Bible to change anyone's long-held, because long-taught views.

Wisdom, Chapter 11:22-12:2.

In your sight, Lord, the whole world is like a grain of dust that tips the scales, like a drop of morning dew falling on the ground. Yet you are merciful to all, because you can do all things and overlook men's sins so that they can repent. Yes, you love all that exists, you hold nothing of what you have made in abhorrence, for had you hated anything, you would not have formed it. And how, had you not willed it, could a thing persist, how be conserved if not called forth by you? You spare all things because all things are yours, Lord, lover of life, you whose imperishable spirit is all. Little by little, therefore, you correct those who offend, you admonish and remind them of how they have sinned, so that they may abstain from evil and trust in you, Lord.

I include it not as any "proof" or last word, there's quite enough of that sort of thing on here already, but merely as an offering for prayer and reflection.

Once more you used a lot of words to fail to answer any questions that were posed. Just more of your opinionated empty speeches. I'm surprised you bother with the bible at all considering how much of it you fail to understand and/or dismiss. It's laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

It is VERY sad, yes, dear Loz (mornin' and peace to you, my dear!). I will let dear 'Mom (peace, luv!) respond, but I can't help highlighting this, yet another hypocritical comment:

It takes a very decent JW or ex-JW indeed, at that point, to then listen to what another is saying, or even to go back to the Bible and read it through, seeing the greater picture.

Given how these discussions are going, the inclusion of Bible verses and by whom, the mockery of that (along with the OBVIOUS failure to understand ANY of it), and the failure to respond to the various questions directly posed... particularly as to what the Bible "says" and SOME kind of support to support/refute one's position ABOUT that... I am (almost) FLOORED by this comment. Almost. It is typical and just more of the same ol' bullock pucky... so I managed to stay in my chair. Barely, though.

Did lose a dribble of coffee, though, so off to the shower! Gotta run, chikkens, as the day calls and I'se got stuff to do!

Peace... and let's do try to keep the bullard pucky down to a minimum today, shall we? 'Cause it's really starting to get rather DEEP up in here! I mean, GOODNESS GRACIOUS!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Sorry, I should have put this in quotes:



The post makes more sense now.

Peace!

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar

Good Morning Char,

I'm not sure about this. But was your reference to this book of "Wisdom" what you had in mind when you said a decent xjw would use other NON Wt sources and bibles?
Ones that havent been eliminated?

What about ones that have been "added" that are not original scripture? Is this book of Wisdom one the Catholics just added in as part of their exclusive bible and made it scripture on their own?
And then we are supposed to trust what it says is from spirit because the catholics say so?

Char,

You cannot respond and refute what is shared here by spirit and backed up scripturally. Honestly, how can you??

Your filter is the RCC, without even a voice from our Lord to validate what you know and hear. And you expect us to not respond and completely disagree?

Char, you DO hear this. You DO know that what we share is truth. You are choosing NOT to receive it for the same reason I chose not to "hear" my Lord inside the Wt.

Pride, arrogance, lack of humility, and just being afraid to admit that we are wrong. We were misled. YOU are still allowing yourself to be misled. Your hard-heartedness is not allowing you to receive the truth our Lord is sharing over and over again. You keep defending the RCC. You have GOT TO KNOW it is not going to "fly" with us that have moved past ALL forms of earthly religions that play mediator and father to christs sheep.

We are His body, that is the Church, and it is NOT in any form of religion on earth. It is not in any man-made/building/place to worship or attend mass. They are scattered all over the earth (his body) They belong to HIM and HIM only. Those that do belong to Him will "come out of religion as His sheep" and hear his voice, an ACTUAL voice.
This is not something I am asking or questioning. I am sharing it with you as truth. But once again, it is your choice what you do with it. But I am not confused, I am not filtering through JW mentality. This is the excuse you keep coming up with when there is no other way to disprove by testing the spirit.

I do not do the back and forths so much as the others for two reasons. I grew up in a extremely argumentative enviroment. Very abusive. And I do not type very fast as I have shared.

But Char, stop with the fact that you think everyone is against you. The accusations you feel as nasty, are actually "truthful".
You do know what you are doing. You are much smarter than me in a lot of ways. I can see it, my lord tells me you can see it, you understand, and you want people to think you are a victim.

Think about it honestly, its always when you dont like what you hear (sounds and read uncomfortable.) Of course, WHO wants to feel uncomfortable? We all like our comfort zone. But TRUTH will snap us right out of that comfort zone, hurt our feelings for a minute, knock us down to reality, but guess what??? Its truth and will save our llives!!! So who cares where it comes from?

Our Lord wants us to be able to take it directly from HIM> But we don't always listen (because its an uncomfortable mirror) SO....he'll use those of his body to help each other at times.

And the other reason, whenever we expose the RCC, you get defensive. Not against Christ but against the physical place you worship and the Pope. Why? Its just a building, a place you go to which means WHAT?? Like the Kingdom hall. Jah doesnt dwell in handmade temples and Vaticans remember? But you would NEVER know it if you watched T.V. or the news.

He dwells, his spirit in people. And I tell you, not ask you, not debate this with you, he is NOT in everyone in that RCC. He is not in the Pope. If the Pope truly was listening to Christ, he would get out of YOUR way of worship and stop allowing people to bow at his feet, kiss his cross, require you all to use the term father, play your mediator and channel to salvation.

I'm sorry Char, but shame on Him.

My love and my prayers are for you my sister. Please soften your heart towards the spirit of our Lord. Listen to HIM! Allow yourself to admit that he has a "real voice" not just a feeling towards mankind. He is personal. So personal that he will talk to us ALL and DOES! We don't listen! OR we don't obey! It's always one or the other or BOTH Char.

Along with my Lord as the bride I proclaim the invitation that others are doing as well. To "COME" to Him. Ask for the Holy Spirit that is FREE! It is then that will understand and truly "HEAR HIM".
It will be more than a gut feeling.

Love to you always,
Justmom

I read the book of Wisdom. It also speaks of those who are separated from God. I believe, in the passages that you quoted, the point was being made that God is slow to anger, and gives people MANY chances and much time to repent - something no one here is arguing with... as that IS God showing mercy and love to ALL; but that does not mean all will repent or that all will dwell in his love.


If you are separated from God... are you not also separated from His love? Not because He has cast you away... but because you have left Him?

As our own Lord said:

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love; just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love.


Why does this bother you, Char? Why do you think that these words, spoken also by our Lord, are wrong?


Peace to you,

tammy

Justmom, none of the things you appear to have been told about the Catholic Church are true. The Pope isn't a mediator. Christ is our mediator.

You just don't know, and what you think you know you don't understand. Not your fault. I don't think you'd be allowed here to believe anything else. The sad thing is that when you bravely got out of the Watchtower you fell right into the fiery furnace. I wish you well.

As to the other posts and posters here. Well, the less said the better. Have you noticed how few people post here any more?

The quality of the site shows itself. "By their fruits you will know them" and that's so right. We do.

Well, people, it's been fun, and thanks for the massive enlightenment on collective human interaction in a disordered, insane environment, as well as the object lesson on how a cult begins. Fascinating!

Try and be nice to each other. There aren't many of you left.

JWs don't believe the WTBTS GB is there mediator, either, dear Char (peace to you!)... nor does that body make the claim they are. However, that JWs don't BELIEVE it... and the WTBTS DENIES it... doesn't mean it's not TRUE. Even YOU believe it to be TRUE. Now, try, if you possibly can, to see how WE might see the SAME situation as with you, those you worship with, and the RCC Pope (as well as other popes).

But let's look at it more closely. I have found a Catholic explanation of the purpose of the Pope (you can find that here:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_p ... f_the_Pope). I have highlighted certain... mmmm... assertions... that, I PROMISE you... belie your claim above, although perhaps obscured in the rest of the rhetoric. But, let's go through it... and maybe that will help you see why we state what we do. Perhaps not, but no harm in trying (yet again):

What is the purpose of the Pope?

Answer:The pope is regarded as successor to St Peter. Being one of the apostles, Peter was subject to the same privileges and obligations as the other apostles. Bishops are the equivalent in today's Catholic Church.

This statement poses three (3) problems right off the bat, at least for me:

1. I don't believe OR accept that Pope IS Peter's successor, and I have explained why (the misinterpretation of what Christ said TO Peter, as to "what" he was going to build his church on, the "rock"... and WHO that "rock" is. For you, Peter is that "rock." For me (and perhaps some others here), CHRIST is that Rock... which is corroborate by several verses... and it was Peter's FAITH... IN him, the Rock... on which Christ was saying he was going to build God's "house" - his Body and church. Since we disagree on this very fundamental truth, we're most probably NEVER going to come to "common ground" here.

2. AS one of the apostles "subject to the same privileges and obligations as the other apostles", Peter would never have BEEN raised up; to the contrary, even HE would have reminded those who would try to RAISE him up what our dear Lord said about NONE being leaders, but all being BROTHERS (and servants of one another)... because they (and we) already HAVE a Leader: him (Christ). If, then, Christ raised Peter up, then he literally reneged on his own words... or lied... which he did not do! Rather, again, it is certain men who, in either misunderstanding... OR attempting to "mislead, if possible, EVEN the chosen ones," who have fomented this false teaching.

3. That Peter WAS the "rock" on which Christ was to build is the understanding of... the CATHOLIC Church. That does not make it TRUTH, however.

However in Scripture Jesus promised that He would build His Church on Peter and

Please, see Item 2, above. Because that is an error.

He gave the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter alone. "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

He gave the keys to ALL of his apostles... excluding Judas' Iscariot... AND including Paul, whom he called to be an apostle to the nations. We can KNOW he gave them to ALL... because of his words:

"After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit.

If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained." John 20:22

The KEYS to the kingdom, dear one, are "justice, mercy, and faith." By means of JUSTICE, those who sins SHOULD be retained ARE retrained. By means of MERCY, those who sins SHOULD be forgiven ARE forgiven. By means of FAITH, those sins that should be forgiven CAN be forgiven.

Now, of course, you're going to say, "NO ONE sins should remain, Shelby!" But I would say to YOU that that is yet another error YOU have been taught, for Christ said something entirely different. Agreeing with the religious leaders who DENIED they were blind when confronted by our dear Lord after they harassed a blind man that our dear Lord had healed, he agreed with them, that we were NOT blind and so had acted purposefully... he said to them:

"If you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say, 'We can see,' your guilt remains." John 9:41 (JB)

I quoted the JB so that we would have some "common ground" here; however, the JB rendering is not really accurate. That's because the Greek word here for "guilty"... hamartia (G266)... means "sin." It's from the root word hamartanō which means the same thing. You don't have to take my word for it, though. You can find some information here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... G266&t=KJV.

And so a more ACCURATE rendering of the verse would be:

"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of SIN, but since you say, 'We can see,' your guilt of SIN remains."

Which you also don't have to take my word for but can see some other versions that might help you see, here: http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%209:41

The POINT is, however, that the sin of THESE men remained - they were not RELEASED from it. Which is what KEYS do: lock... and unlock. Bind... and release. Hence, the next comment in the article, at to what Christ said to Peter which, again, he said to them ALL, per John 20:22:

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." (Matthew Ch 16)

In order to maintain legal harmony between heaven and earth this passage of St Matthew's Gospel also provides that whatever he binds or looses on earth, apparently in the execution of this duty, will also be bound or loosed in heaven.

Quote:

Taking this at face value the role/purpose of St Peter and his successors is to ensure access to the benefits of the Kingdom of Heaven for those authorized to receive them and this is supported by the instruction "feed my lambs", "feed my sheep".

Here's the thing, though, dear, dear Char: Peter HAD no successors! I mean, sure, certain men stepped up rose to the occasion of taking a lead in bearing witness to Christ (which is what Peter did!)... and others CLAIMED to be such... or were NAMED such... by other MEN... but CHRIST... NEVER named a successor to Peter. Indeed, the ONLY person named a successor was the disciple Stephen, who was replaced by Paul. The Catholic assertion that Peter was the "lead" Apostle is based on two false premises: (1) that he was the first of the disciples to recognize Christ (that designation belonged to Peter's BROTHER, Andrew!); and (2) that he was named first in the "list" of Apostles by Mark (Mark 3:16). Mark was Peter's SON (1 Peter 5:13)... and received much of his account FROM his father, Peter... so of COURSE he would name his father first! In addition, if [i]Peter was going to name a successor, it would have BEEN his son, Mark.

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and he acts as the leader of the faithful under Jesus Who is the Head of the Catholic church.

This is in direct opposition to what CHRIST said, dear Char:

"Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ." Matthew 23:10 (JB)

The interesting thing HERE is that the Greek word for "teacher" (as used in the JB)... kathēgētēs (G2519)... ACTUALLY means "guide" or "master"... and comes from a compound word that includes the Greek word, hēgeomai, which means "to lead, go before, to be a leader"... and more (ruler, authority, etc.) - http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2233&t=KJV. The Greek word for "teacher"... in both a scholarly and religious EDUCATIONAL sense is didaskalos (G1320) - http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 1320&t=KJV.

So, that the Pope acts "as the leader of the faithful" in DIRECT opposition to what Christ directed. That's not a surprise, though - a LOT of stuff in opposition to Christ began to occur after the Apostles died. Moving on...



"Highest RANKING?" What of Christ's words, though, that:

"The greatest among you must be your servant." Matthew 23:11

Our Leader, Christ, PROVED himself our servant and that of his disciples and apostles. Where was his robes, dear Char? His "Vatican"? His fancy red shoes? His body-guards? His pension? His fancy dwelling? His bank... Swiss guard... gold censers and fancy umbrellas? Where was his secretary, personal cook, personal physician, housekeeper, driver, etc.? Dear Char, if the Pope is the SUCCESSOR to Peter... why does HE not have the same abilities AS Peter, which abilities were granted BY Christ?

"Once, when Peter and John were going up to the Temple for the prayers at the ninth hour, it happened that there was a man being carried along. He was a cripple from birth; and they used to put him down every day near the Temple entrance called the Beautiful Gate so that he could beg from the people going in. When this man saw Peter and John on their way into the Temple he begged from them. Peter, and John too, looked straight at him and said, 'Look at us.' He turned to them expectantly, hoping to get something from them, but Peter said, 'I have neither silver nor gold, but I will give you what I have: in the name of [Jesus] Christ the Nazarene, walk!' Then he took him by the right hand and helped him to stand up. Instantly his feet and ankles became firm, he jumped up, stood, and began to walk, and he went with them into the Temple, walking and jumping and praising God.

"Everyone could see him walking and praising God, and they recognised him as the man who used to sit begging at the Beautiful Gate of the Temple. They were all astonished and perplexed at what had happened to him. Everyone came running towards them in great excitement, to the Portico of Solomon, as it is called, where the man was still clinging to Peter and John.

"When Peter saw the people he addressed them, 'Men of Israel, why are you so surprised at this? Why are you staring at us as though we had made this man walk by our own power or holiness? It is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, who has glorified his servant Jesus whom you handed over and then disowned in the presence of Pilate after he had given his verdict to release him. It was you who accused the Holy and Upright One, you who demanded that a murderer should be released to you while you killed the prince of life. God, however, raised him from the dead, and to that fact we are witnesses; and it is the name of Jesus which, through faith in him, has brought back the strength of this man whom you see here and who is well known to you. It is faith in him that has restored this man to health, as you can all see." Acts 3:1-16

SURELY... EVERY successor to Peter... every TRUE successor... would be granted the SAME abilities... else, why APPOINT such a person? The Body doesn't NEED a leader... OR a teacher... but it IS granted gifts OF the spirit. What gifts are the Pope's such that he is Peter's SUCCESSOR, dear one? C'mon, Char... THINK!

And "ordained"... by WHOM, dear Char? What is the process to naming a pope? We all know it. But who is SUPPOSED to ordain us... and HOW? John, one of the 12 and the Apostle chosen to receive the Revelation, tells us:

"So much have I written to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

"But as for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; since the anointing he gave you teaches you everything, and since it is true, not false, remain in him just as he has taught you." 1 John 2:26, 27 (JB)

As JOHN wrote, in OPPOSITION to those who were saying the Body NEEDED teachers... we are TAUGHT by the ANOINTING (with holy spirit)... the spirit of TRUTH... which the Father GIVES us... THROUGH Christ.

His responsibilities include overseeing all decisions made by the Catholic Church,

That sounds like a leader to me...

protecting the deposit of faith

I don't even know what that means. "Protecting" HOW?

and seeking that the Church's mission on earth is being conducted. He alone may engage the special charism of the papal office by invoking infallibility on matters of religious doctrine that need final declaration...

Yikes! But... he's not a mediator... no, no... but he can "invoke infallibility on matters of religious doctrine"... although NO mention of the possession of holy... in his ordination, his leadership, OR his invocation... wow.

, but this is rarely done.

Thank GOD!!

That is not to say he can wantonly change the views and meanings in Catholicism, before he makes such a decision he will spend much time praying on the matter and consulting others.

Praying... to WHOM? And why? The men who conferred on the matters of circumcision, blood, etc., didn't need to pray on it - they simply relied on the ANOINTING they had received. As JOHN wrote! And the account even SAYS this!

The pope's purpose is to govern the Universal Church so that all will be in communion and represent what [Jesus] founded,

Govern?? Yet, you take issue with the WTBTS' "governing" body. We do, too, of course... but with ALL who seek to govern the Body of Christ... in his place! Why? Because ALL such ones "seat THEMSELVES in the seat of Moses!" And HERE... we have ONE man deigning to do so (although others are responsible for stoking... and stroking his ego!)... versus the BODY of men Christ chose! But he chose them to FEED us... and SERVE us - not LEAD or TEACH us!

the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. In all other aspects he is a man, liable to sin and even disgrace should he fail in his office or basic virtues.

Yet, there have been a long, LONG line of such men who HAVE: fornicators, adulterers, idolators, murderers, abusers of women and children... etc., etc., etc. Yet, we are to assume that GOD had a hand in APPOINTING these men! How can that even be POSSIBLE? Peter denied Christ, yes, but BEFORE he received holy spirit! Paul opposed Christ, yes, but BEFORE he received holy spirit! Moses killed man... but BEFORE he was chosen to lead Israel! Yes, David committed murder after he was chosen as king of Israel... but David was NEVER appointed a PRIEST in Israel!

The pope is Bishop of Rome with Christ as the Head of the Catholic church. The word pope comes from the Greek word for shepherd.

Yes! Yet, there is only ONE shepherd of GOD's sheep, yes? And ALL who come in place of THAT One are thieves and plunderers, yes? Or "hired men"? Neither of which are well-spoken of by Christ himself, yes? John 10:1-15

He is chosen from the cardinals by a unanimous vote to lead the church.

(1) Then he is not chosen by Christ; and (2) how do you, I, or ANYONE know if he was even chosen by such cardinals... unanimously or otherwise? The ballots aren't made public but immediately BURNED. So, while there may be a lot of pomp and circumstance, NO ONE knows WHO was "elected" by the Cardinal college... except the 3-4 who supposedly "count" the ballots. C'MON, dear Char... THINK girl! You CAN'T be THAT naive... or gullible!



Not true. They can't even decide if it was Linus or Clement who supposedly came next. Even so, where does the apostasy START, dear one... and from WHERE do the wicked men Christ warned us about come FROM? Was it not from imposters within the Body itself??

Peter's original name was Simon but was changed to Peter when Jesus chose him the lead the church after Jesus' death. Peter comes from the word for stone and Peter was "the rock" on which the church was built.

This is LIE, Char - a LIE! Peter is not and was NEVER the rock - Christ is... has always been and will also BE the Rock, dear one. And the Church HE builds is on FAITH... such as Peter showed... IN that Rock! THAT is what he meant... and said... to dear Peter, my dear, dear sister. Peter faith IN the Rock... was as SOLID... AS the Rock!

That is also why we have a pope today. Jesus selected a fallible, mortal but devout man to help lead his other followers and we continue this today.

Christ chose NO ONE to lead his sheep, dear one, but fulfilled the FATHER'S choosing of HIMSELF as that leader. He then chose, with the Father's guidance, TWELVE... NOT one... to SERVE those sheep. After that, others were chosen to further CARE for the sheep... not LEAD them or TEACH them.

He is chosen by his colleagues as the best suited for the office from among them due to his piety, knowledge, administrative acumen and temperament.

Which is why I MUST reject him as some kind of spiritual leader: because (1) MEN chose him, NOT God OR Christ; and (2) I have a leader: the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

He is the spokesman of the Church

Christ... is the spokesman of the Church, dear, dear Char. His sheep listen to HIS voice, NOT to the voice of strangers, which strangers include the WTBTS, the RCC Pope... and many, many others.

and when new issues arise he is responsible for discerning the position of the Church based on Its doctrine, morals and tradition.

Then, heck, what do we even NEED holy spirit, THE Holy Spirit... or Christ... for. We have the Pope.

Catholics do not worship him or think he is perfect or infallible, they do respect him...

I am of the mind that Catholics, then, don't truly understand what the word "worship" TRULY means.

and trust him as the vicar of Christ.

Then may JAH have mercy on them... because we have been warned to NOT put our trust in earthling man. That would include the Pope, dear, dear Char. We ARE told, however, to kiss the SON... and put our trust in HIM... and so in his Father, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH... of Armies.

I truly hope this helps... and that I don't run OUT of hope.

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Thank you my sister for all this in detail.

Very simply put to me all through these years is why my Lord has shown me there is no difference between what the WTBS does and is doing and the RCC and any other visible organization that plays mediator between Jah and his sheep.

We have ONE leader! ONE shephard, ONE voice, a real voice to listen to and obey! Holy Spirit that dwells in us so we do not need the middle man ( the pope, the GB).

If others do, then fine by them. But I cannot be told that I am being misled and that I don't fully understand religions on earth, when I most certainly do know what they are and what they do. It has absolutely nothing to do with any baggage or filtering from the WTBS. If nothing else, I personally thank the WTBS for the opportunity through them to see what my lord meant with them and how others are just different versions of the same thing.

I personally will hold on to hope as well. My prayers are for any and all to hear and receive this truth so that they will understand that everything that we were waiting for through CHRIST, everything that was forward that he would come and fulfill he did. Anything we questioned as to whether there is a God that truly exists that is LOVE, he showed us.

We don't need anything on this earth to worship through. It all belongs to our adversary as a means to mislead US!

And it truly is working as the world is in darkness, alienated from Jah, worshiping the way they choose to, not the way and through the one Jah says to listen to. HIS SON, the glorified Holy Spirit !!
It is ALL we need. He actually simplified it ( LOL) for us.


Thank you again
Love to you all
Justmom

Yes, I agree and feel very similar JM.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

Just a simple view here But Christ did indeed give Peter a "special place", but not to lead all followers, BUT to be a figure head for His apostles:

John 21:
15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus *said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He *said to him, “Tend My lambs.” 16 He *said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He *said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17 He *said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.

This wasn't a "proclamation" of superiour authority of Peter, it was Christ's way to help Peter forgive himself for what he did and to make Peter understand that nothing had changed, that he ( Peter) would still be the "Sheppard" of the apostles and the followers.

Let me ask you, dear, dear P (peace to you, luv!) to consider - it is POSSIBLE that our dear Lord was saying/meaning something ENTIRELY different, when he said this to Peter? Let me show you something, dear one. I am sure you are familiar with this event:

"[Jesus] told them, “This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: '‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.”

"Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.”

“Truly I tell you,” [Jesus] answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”

But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same."

Wow. He was pretty dang SURE, wasn't he, Peter? Even though our dear Lord TRIED to tell him what he WOULD do. No, he KNEW what he would... and would not do! Yes?

"Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. “You also were with [Jesus] of Galilee,” she said. But he denied it before them all. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” he said. Then he went out to the gateway, where another servant girl saw him and said to the people there, “This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth.' He denied it again, with an oath: “I don’t know the man!” After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, “Surely you are one of them; your accent gives you away.”

"Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!”

Wow. He was pretty adamant that he DIDN'T know our dear Lord. Yes? But just before, he said he would DIE with our Lord before he would deny him! Yes? Yet, he hadn't even been THREATENED with death... yet. But here he was, NOT just denying, NOT just doing so with an oath (promise)... to the point of CALLING DOWN CURSES and SWEARING (on GOD... 'cause that's Who they swore ON!).

And yet...

Immediately a rooster crowed. Then Peter remembered the word [Jesus] had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly.

Now, let's look at another scenario... one that is actually WAY more SIMILAR to the above than perhaps you realize:

"When they had finished eating, [Jesus] said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

[Jesus] said, “Feed my lambs.”

Again [Jesus] said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”

[Jesus] said, “Take care of my sheep.”

The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

Peter was hurt because [Jesus] asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “

Quote:

Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you

.”

So, although Christ told him THREE times that he WOULD betray him, Peter DENIED that truth EACH time. He not only denied our dear Lord, but adamantly, vehemently, and with promises, curses, and swearing. NOW he was being asked... THREE times whether he loved our Lord... and all THREE times... he was adamant that he did. He even got his feelings hurt that he was asked a THIRD time!

What does this tell us about Peter, though? It's tell us what the previous account tells us: that PETER... was a man... look saw his face in the mirror, yes, but AS SOON AS HE TURNED AWAY... IMMEDIATELY FORGOT what sort of man he WAS! THAT's why he didn't even REMEMBER that our Lord had told him he would deny him... UNTIL THE ROOSTER CROWED AND REMINDED HIM.

And it's the same here: Peter had TOTALLY forgotten that he had ALREADY disproved his love... when he DENIED our dear Lord, not once, NOT twice, but THREE times... AND with promises, curses, and swears... AND after our dear Lord TOLD him he would! How do you FORGET that?? But apparently Peter DID forget... because he was "HURT" because our dear Lord asked him three times if he loved him!

But the account goes on to show us a bit more of Peter and his VERY short memory... AND there's another account that might help understand WHY our Lord said this to Peter (because he DID know Peter!). As to Peter's very short memory:

"[Jesus] said, “Feed my sheep. Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” [Jesus] said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

"Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom [Jesus] loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against [Jesus] at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

Uh, wait, Pete. What about... YOU??? And our dear Lord was apparently thinking that, too, because he said, to a yet distracted and forgetful Peter:

“If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”

Uh, yeah, Pete: mind YOURS... 'cause you've already shown your faith to be somewhat shaky. So the ONLY one you need to be thinking about and concentrating on... and worry what will HAPPEN to... is YOU!

Did he? Did Peter do what he SAID he would (well, if you notice, he never said he WOULD feed our dear Lord's sheep - he kept saying he LOVED our dear Lord, but he didn't say, "Of COURSE I'll feed them, Lord!" No, not dear Pete. He was SO worried about being BELIEVED in his proclamation of love... he didn't really respond to what he was being DIRECTED to do! Which MIGHT account for why he failed, at least at one point... to DO it:

"In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic (Greek) Jews among them complained against the Hebraic (Hebrew) Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.

Wait... could THIS be the "feeding" Christ was speaking of??? But Peter didn't allow this to go on... did he?

So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”" Acts 6:1-4

Wait... what happened to that whole "greatest must be least" command? Heck, Christ washed THEIR feet! And did HE not take time out of HIS ministry to make sure the crowds were fed? Indeed, did he not make his disciples stay WITH him and HELP him feed them, they who wanted to send the people home??

If CHRIST could be bothered to stop and feed people... who didn't (yet) even belong to him (indeed, many of whom later called for his death - as he said to them, they weren't even following him because they wanted his words... but because they wanted FOOD)... how could the APOSTLES not do so? Isn't that one of the things he TOLD them to do... technically AND literally? Yet, they were too busy... and too important, apparently.

And our dear Lord KNEW that this time would come, when some of his sheep... WIDOWS... would be OVERLOOKED in the distribution of FOOD... and that dear, dear Peter would be partly responsible. That he WOULDN'T make it a priority, even though he was adamant about his love of our dear Lord. Just as he knew Peter would deny him. He TRIED to get Peter to pay attention, but he KNEW he wouldn't.

But as James wrote:

"Do not merely listen to the Word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what he says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what he says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like."

THAT, dear one... was our dear brother Peter. He HEARD what he was to do... but he FORGOT what he heard! He often DID. As MOST of us do! (And that doesn't mean Peter was cast OFF... not at ALL! He had not only been made a PROMISE, but had that promise SEALED. Which goes to FURTHER show the LEVEL of God's mercy!! As is for US!)

And here, it was with regard to the form of worship that, beyond listening to God's Word... is ACCEPTABLE to God:

"But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do."

Had Peter done what our dear Lord TOLD him to do - FEED HIS SHEEP - Peter would have been BLESSED in DOING it! JUST like five loaves and two fishes fed a multitude... ALL of these widows would have been taken care of, GENEROUSLY... AND Peter's ministry would have STILL been blessed! Indeed, MORE SO!

James goes on:

"Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless."

What did he mean? People who talk a lot? No, dear one: he meant those who vow to God/Christ... WITH THEIR MOUTHS... but do not FULFILL those vows! That worship... religion... is worthless. Empty. Of no value. Because it's just words. Peter saying "I love you, Lord!" is PROVEN... NOT by his WORDS... but his DEEDS (faith WITHOUT works... is DEAD. Worthless.).

He concludes the thought, saying:

"Religion/worship that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

And although he had been COMMANDED to feed our dear Lord's sheep, so as to PROVE his stated love... apparently, our dear Peter "fell down" AGAIN... resulting in the GREEK widows NOT receiving food.

BUT... you don't have to take MY word for it, dear one, that THIS is what our dear Lord meant... and why... when he asked dear Peter... THREE times... if he loved him, and told him as many times, if not more... to feed his sheep.

Of course, I am sure someone going to say, "No, Christ meant that Peter was to feed the sheep SPIRITUALLY." And to that I would respond, along with John's reminder that it is the anointing that teaches us... that CHRIST is the ONLY Faithful and Discreet Servant... who gives us SPIRITUAL food... and drink... the "bread from heaven"... and "living water". At the right and proper time. No one else. There is no other. Really. I do not lie to you.

I hope this helps, my dear brother. I do realize that it might be hard to receive but, as always, I exhort you to NOT take MY word for it... but to simply go and ask. And if it's difficult to receive from him, too... no worries - just give a little time to sink in. Because sometimes "strongly entrenched" things need a little "water"... to soften them up, so that they can be UNentrenched. There is One who has an abundance of water... as well as "eyesalve"... and is more than willing to give it... GENEROUSLY... to ANYONE asking for it.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Sounds right to me; widows, orphans, single mothers, etc. are often overlooked in the congregations as far as practical matters. That's something I never could understand about the witnesses. You'd think if they didn't have it in their heart, at least they would do it for SHOW, especially if someone was a convert, as a witness to their worldly family.

Most of them will leave a woman on the side of the road in a broken-down car, so they get to their Sunday meeting on time. Because it's so important to not miss anything, like do unto others. They just don't get it; don't get how it relates to real everyday life.

IMO, Our Lord ask Peter to tend to His ( Our Lord's) "sheep" to be their shepherd.
And He did, as did James and John ( the "pillars" of the Jerusalem church).
I think that meant to oversee, as a shepherd does, that their needs were meet.
I don't think that meant spiritual needs per say because that is the role of the HS, not of any man.