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 Post subject: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:00 am 
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There are a few phrases that I have become exposed to over and over again when reading up on or speaking with those experienced with the religion of the Watchtower/JW

One of the phrases is the Whore of Babylon or Harlot of Babylon or any derivative of.

Many theories abound of what she symbolizes. With JW theology it seems to be a catchall title for all false religions. False religion in that they are not JW. This constant use seems to be very much so a JW or exJW phenomenon in the use of jargon.

Which teachings of the Watchtower are false and which do you all hold to be true?

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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:19 am 
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Many people agree with the JW view that the "harlot of babylon" is false religion, of course they don't think that whatever religion/spiritual ideology THEY follow is in there, LOL !


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:26 am 
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I have seen the good in people in every religion and I have seen the bad in people in every religion/spiritual ideology.
The one constant I have seen is the view that "I/We are right and they are wrong" and, amazingly enough, all sides have the "proof" to their view.
Of course I am guilt of this too, blatantly at times.

I think that to many times we get caught up in "US" and don't realize that it isn't about US, but about "them".
I used to think that evangelicals were all wackos, and I was wrong.
I used to think there was no redeeming value in many denominations and still do about some, like those Westboro Baptist fanatics or any group that spews hatred above Love.

I recall when Christ's followers complained about others preaching and casting out demons in Christ's name, those that were NOT with them, those that were not part of THEIR group and what did Christ Say?

He who is not against me, is for me. ( Paraphrasing).

BUT what does that mean?

IMO, to preach Christ and LOVE is to be FOR Christ, to preach Christ and hate or division is to be against Him.

That is the "harlot of babylon", those that preach hate and division, no matter their "disguise".


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:16 am 
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I don't know all of their teachings to be able to lay it out like that. But they do teach things that are true... but then their explanation is false.

For example,

Armageddon is a true thing, but their explanation of this 'war of God' is false. Some truth, some falsehood. The truth that they bring it is simply from studying the bible... and anyone who does that is bound to get some things correct, imo. The falsehood that they bring into it is because they do not know God (through knowing His Son), and so there is NO love in their teaching.

1st and 2nd resurrections is true (it is written right there in black and white), but their understanding is warped. Again, no love in their explanation.

Combined with their teaching on armageddon, we have:

God kills everyone who is not a jw (and even those who are not 'good' jws') at Armageddon. Those jws who survive get to live a thousand years to prove themselves worthy all over again, because at the end of the thousand years comes yet another judgment. During those thousand years some will still be fooled by Satan, and those ones get to die.

Talk about exhaustion and despair. Survive armageddon, only to live in fear and burdened down for another thousand years, under threat of Satan and the second death.

Even though the scripture explicitly says, "blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no hold over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

Someone else will have to explain how they get around that verse. I don't personally know, though I'm sure they HAVE an explanation. But again, their understanding is all based on fear, and not on love. They SAY it is based on love (paradise earth and living forever!!!), but that is just a carrot, and the race to get that carrot is so long and so burdened, that no wonder so many are angry or in despair... or simply feels completely free and light by leaving (that) God altogether.


No hell though... they have that right, as opposed to mainstream teaching on it.

The kingdom being on earth... they have that right. Again, in part though. They are all about the physical, mainstream Christianity is all about the heavenly. When it is actually both physical and spiritual, as with Adam and the Garden of Eden.

Peace,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:06 am 
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No hell?
Really?
So, what are these?

Quote:
Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).


Just saying...


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:10 am 
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It is important to understand that doctrine comes from an attempt to reconcile and answer questions about passages in the bible.
Very few doctrines have no scriptural support at all, it is the element of interpretation and context that causes differences in the doctrines of one group to another.


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:55 am 
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Oh, I know the doctrine of hell, as written, has some biblical support, taken the meanings as they have come to be.

But the jws got it right, investigating more than just the word 'hell' and what it has come to mean, as opposed to what it originally meant; including that there was no burning hell doctrine in Judaism. Can you imagine how anything could possibly be considered 'good news' if Christ came along with this new teaching of burning hellfire? You think there wouldn't have been a huge uproar over that, lol?

I do realize that you are saying that 'hell' is in the bible, and so people promoting that doctrine have backing, as long as they go by what the word has come to mean. But hey, even what is in the bible should be tested, right? If against love (God) and truth (Christ)... then it is false.

Funny, in that this is one that my study conductor DID test with love. She once said to me that no God of love would have people burning in torment for all eternity. That the context and meaning of the word backs this, just makes it that much more clear.

You know, its the doctrine of hell itself, that keeps people believing it... because they are afraid not to, and most certainly afraid to tell others that there is no such place, just in case there is and now they get sent there because of what they said. I saw that in people after I stopped studying the jws, and then researched the doctrine of hell. People telling other people that they were going to hell for teaching that there is no hell.

But Revelation clearly states what the lake of fire IS: the second death. And that second death is eternal.

Peace,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:09 am 
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Jesus told a parable with Hell in it.

Then again it's possible that the parable was attributed to Jesus but he never really told it :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:10 am 
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The Lazarus one, you mean, Pup?

Peace,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:12 am 
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Lemme go find it.... It was among the two books I referenced earlier..

Yes the beggar Lazurus and the rich man

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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:15 am 
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Hen also mentioned that Angels carried the poor man into Abraham's bosom.

Now someone mentioned that after Jesus died on the cross that the dead remained dead until the second resurrection will take place and that was how Abraham came to be in heaven

It's somewhat hard for me to use Bible quotes to pose a question or answer because of the "false scribes" and "mistranslations" argument. As such all stories and quotes of Jesus are suspect but its a common base for all our debates and conversations :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:59 am 
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Quote:
Which teachings of the Watchtower are false


Most, dear Pup (peace to you!)

Quote:
and which do you all hold to be true?


Very few. Less than I can count on one hand. Three immediately come to mind:

1. No eternally burning hell in which people are tortured perpetually. There is sheol/hades (which is NOT the "common grave" as the WTBTS, but literally the world of the dead)... and the "lake of fire" (Gehenna). But no one burns eternally in the Lake of Fire. The Adversary burns there for "forever", but that it because of the amount of time it takes to destroy the energy that HE is.

2. No trinity (we've discussed that already).

3. A millenial rule with Christ, as kings and priests, for some (some, however, the holy ones (144,000 from Israel who accepted and put faith in Christ) rule with him indefinitely).

All that comes to mind right now, but I know there are 2-3, 4 more. But out of ALL they teach, most is false. Even so, ONE of the false teachings virtually adds up to ALL of the false teachings of the others. And that is that only SOME can/must partake of Christ's flesh and blood. By means of this false teaching they are not only preventing "little children" from "coming to" Christ (which they also do by seating themselves in the seat of Moses and so acting as mediator between "Jehovah" and their members)... but prevent them from having a UNION with him... and thus "shut UP the kingdom of the heavens BEFORE" them.

If I remember any others that are still TRUE, I will post them. But I hope this helps, for now.

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Quote:
Just saying...


Well, those comments DO look quite "convincing", don't they (peace to you all!). Perhaps we should look at those verses... and in the light of their Greek renderings... if not holy spirit (although, I would MUCH prefer the latter). But, as I have errands to run shortly, I will give you dear ones a bit of time to look up the Greek for yourselves, if you've a mind to. Perhaps you might also ask the Master to grant you some of his spirit to guide you as you go along, though? I PROMISE you, it will help give you "sight." I can't comment now myself (not enough time) but I do think the comment dear P (peace, bruh!) quoted and verses "interpreted" there warrant some investigation. So maybe can all revisit that when I get back, if you wish.

But, again, perhaps you interested ones might do so first... and THEN share with US what YOU read/find/receive about them?

Okay, gonna take another look 'round the board, then offline for a bit!

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Which teachings of the Watchtower are false and which do you all hold to be true?


Hi Pup...

They teach that Jesus returned in 1914. This is a lie! But since most of their dates and fulfillments stem from this date of 1914, their in a heap of a mess because of this date not jiving the way they foretold it would.


They teach Armageddons ( around the corner any day now) STILL......
And Revelation 20:7-9 says differently . Notice " THE WAR". .....of the great day of God Almighty Revelation 16:14


Uuhmmmmmm..... Those are big ones for them!

Justmom //;)


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 Post subject: Re: "Get out of her"
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
the "harlot of babylon" is false religion


While the WTBTS DOES teach that, dear P (peace, luv!)... that it false (and certainly not what I have come to know is true). In order for a religion to be a harlot in the eyes of the MOST HOLY One of Israel, it had to belong to/be wed/betrothed/promised in wedlock to some "husband" at some point (remember, harlots are "adulteresses" and thus MARRIED women... not concubines or unwed prostitutes). For a religion to be part of the Harlot, Babylon the Great, then, it MUST have some "marital" relationship with Him. Many false religions, however, don't.

It is ONLY those religions that profess to be IN UNION WITH (and thus promised to be wed TO) Him... or His Son. Hence, Israel was styled a harlot. Two, actually: Oholah (as to the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel) and Oholibah (as to the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benjamin).

THIS Harlot, however, Babylon the Great... is one that considers herself a "queen." Hence, HER husband would have to be a "king." That king, dear one, is Christ, the HOLY ONE of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). And this "harlot" would be those who CLAIM to be promised to him, in union with him... so as to be (part of) his BRIDE... but who have committed fornication and adultery AGAINST that union.

The ONLY people who make up this, then, are those who WERE in union with him by means of holy spirit... but have profaned that union by fornicating "with the kings of the earth." Who, rather than remaining TRUE to their "husbandly-owner," Christ... took up illicit relations with other "men."

And from these illicit unions... come "daughters"... who themselves turn out to be harlots... like their "mother"... those who gave "birth" to them. And so who are these?

They are those "anointed" individuals who turn AWAY from Christ... and TO other "men"... including governments... so as to be filthily JOINED to these latter... commit fornication/adultery with them... and thus produce offspring: the "women" with whom they "defile" themselves.

They are the Great Harlot, Babylon the Great... she who is the "Mother of the Harlots"... and her "daughters"... and constitute the FIRST anointed "christians"... who turned AWAY from Christ, and TOWARD "wicked men"... her daughters notice, plural) being the all of the RELIGIONS... that have come OUT of her as a RESULT of her fornication/adultery.

She is likened to a woman (as are her daughters)... as was and is ALL in a (marital/promissory) connection with God/Christ: the spirit realm (Sarah/Jerusalem Above/the Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12)... the physical realm (Hagar/Earth/the mother of Adham/Eve)... Israel, the City of Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, and the NEW Jerusalem. They are ALL "women"... because of the "relationship" they have with JAH... directly and/or through Christ.

SO... Babylon the Great consists ONLY of Israel prior to the first century, then those that professed a union with Christ and received an anointing as a result... and her daughters, those faiths/beliefs/false teachings/religions... that have sprang forth from these.

TODAY, then, she repesents Judaism (Oholah) and "christianity" (Oholibah)... and ALL of the religions ("daughters") that have come forth from these two harlots, combined. Every sect, every cult, every wave of teaching.

The TRUE Body of Christ, however, does not engage in such fornication and adultery. They have been WASHED in the blood of the Lamb and, now CLEAN... do NOT "defile" themselves with (such) "women." They have been RETURNED... to their VIRGIN state... so that when their "husband" (Christ, the Bridegroom) finally arrives, they are found clean... and without blemish.

Babylon the Great does not represent ALL false religions, dear one. "She" only represents those who CLAIM to belong to the MOST HOLY One of Israel (JaHVeH)... and/or to His Son, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One OF JAH(veh).

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama


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