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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:23 pm 
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tec wrote:
Chariklo wrote:
Just prayer, Tammy? Just?

For a good number of people, life itself is prayer.


Don't read something negative into that, Char.

Saying "just" prayer... is simply a means of distinguishing it from something else, in addition TO. Nothing derogatory about my statement or my meaning.

Peace,
tammy


Tammy, I didn't read anything negative into it. Always best not to look for slights and hurts where none are meant, don't you think?

I was just surprised that you felt so limited in your concept of prayer.

No wonder you feel the need to insist that your own communications with Christ are not prayer, your view of prayer being unfortunately so very limiting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:24 pm 
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Oh Shel :D

As you know, I am acutely aware of my many failings as it pertains to Our Lord.
I must admit that it is far easier for me to see my failings than to fix them though.

Pain is the greatest barrier and I hope that one day I will be able to knock down that wall that I have put up between Us.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:25 pm 
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PSacramento wrote:
Zoe wrote:
Quote:
Shelby wrote:
In BOTH instances one can see that PRAYER... is a one-way effort. TO God... but not necessarily back FROM God (which, understandably, can be frustrating, and perhaps accounts for why many leave OFF praying "to" God).

This is so true and why I don't pray as I never heard back or got anything answered.


This is why so many do lose faith and do stop praying.


Exactly, Paul. I was very concerned as soon as I read Zoe's response there, feeling as she did that she had to "hear back" as if prayer were somehow a phone call.

Prayer is so much more than mere request.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Chariklo wrote:
Exactly, Paul. I was very concerned as soon as I read Zoe's response there, feeling as she did that she had to "hear back" as if prayer were somehow a phone call.

Prayer is so much more than mere request.


And yet, Christ says "ask and you shall receive"....


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Quote:
I was very concerned as soon as I read Zoe's response there, feeling as she did that she had to "hear back" as if prayer were somehow a phone call.


This. This right here. This analogy should make things clear.

Are you saying here, Char, that prayer is not like a phone call?

IF you are, then there should be no more need to continue to debate the point, about the difference between prayer, and speaking with Christ.

Speaking with Christ IS like a phone call. A spiritual phone call. One that either you or HE initiates.

One other thing... we do not state that Christ or God prays to us. Why not? Very often, Christ initiates and speaks with me. So what is that then?


Peace,
tammy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
No wonder you feel the need to insist that your own communications with Christ are not prayer, your view of prayer being unfortunately so very limiting.


(Shaking head)

Ah, well... what can you do...

A slave of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:47 pm 
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I'm beginning to shake my head with ALL of you.... :(


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Quote:
Prayer is so much more than mere request.


Not according to the definition... and instructions... Christ gave us, dear Char (peace to you!). Now, if you have knowledge of some OTHER source, then perhaps you would be kind enough to share it with us? If not, then aren't YOU doing the very thing you are taking issue with OTHERS for doing? Listening to your OWN self, as to this matter? Or perhaps to others... who listen to their own selves about it?

Notwithstanding some of the "modern" (and man-made) definitions that you seem to have YOUR understanding rooted in, I have to disagree and say prayer IS request... made to God. Because in every sense, it is approaching to ask Him... FOR... something. I.e., "request." Even if it's for someone else.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:51 pm 
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So we should pray to Jesus Christ, not JAH? If so that is the difference of JW prayers which is to Jehovah and throwing in the "through Jesus Christ" part at the end.

No wonder my prayers were never answered, I was praying to the wrong person. I quit praying when I was fading from the JW religion, I felt I was unworthy and a bad person because I didn't want to be a JW anymore. I never ever was mad at JAH or Christ, I just didn't think I could ha e a relationship with them unless I was a JW.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Quote:
I'm beginning to shake my head with ALL of you


I understand, dear P (again, peace to you!). I, too, had hoped we could follow Paul's plea to Syntyche and Euodia. Still do. But please don't ask (or expect) us to agree just to get along, when such agreement possible equates to a denial of what is true as to God and Christ. While it may not be pretty... or desirable... perhaps this is what our dear Lord meant when he said he came NOT to bring peace... but a sword. That "sword"... is TRUTH, yes? And, so, like a sword, the truth can "cut", "hurt," even "divide."

Would that it were not so, as the truth SHOULD unite. But all cannot receive the "spirit" [of the Truth], yes? And so, make no mistake: we are mourning with you. Have been for some time. But mourning does not equate to compromise when the truth is at stake.

Being "peaceable" IS desirable, yes. However, making a defense for one's faith... when called to do so... is, as well. Stephen wasn't stoned because he shrunk back and said, "Yeah, okay, you Jewish leaders, I don't wanna argue with you, so, okay... have it your way." That's not what happened, luv.

There are others who visit here, for whom this information... and its accuracy... is important. While they may not be vocal or openly participate, they DESERVE to have the truth told to them. Finally. Wouldn't you say? If, though, in telling another the truth, one is considered no longer a friend... well... wouldn't be the first time THAT happened, or the last. Right?

Don't let the working out of these things distress you, too, much, dear one. Praise JAH, we're just a few folks on an Internet board. We are not first century Body members having to stand with/in/for the Truth... before Rome... or Jerusalem (or Nazareth, or Capernaum, or...).

I hope this helps, truly... and DO understand the distress. I don't think you are alone in feeling it. I am sure our first century brothers experienced the same... more often... and much more greatly "heated."

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Zoe, you can of course pray to God your Father in Heaven through Jesus Christ His Son. You can of course pray to Christ Himself. You can of course pray to the Holy Spirit...e.g,"Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful people, and kindle in them the fire of your love." Thus asking the Holy Spirit to work with you and everyone, and that the fruits of the Spirit, peace and understanding and love, will increase in abundance.

No-one has the right, Zoe, to tell you that you may do this and you may not do that. God Our Loving Father hears us...Jesus told us that not even a sparrow falls without His knowledge, and he knows each hair on your head. The Father loves you and Christ loves you, and they are united in the Spirit in Love. No-one, not one person here has the right or the power to stop you praying to God in any way in which you feel comfortable, and you do NOT have to try to strain to hear or do what anyone else tells you to do.

All ways to approach God are yours however you choose, Zoe, and sometimes when we are ill or in pain just resting in God is the best we can do and all that we can do. He knows your heart and he loves you. You do not have to jump through mental hoops trying to do what someone says.

You just don't. After all, He is with you anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Zoe wrote:
So we should pray to Jesus Christ, not JAH? If so that is the difference of JW prayers which is to Jehovah and throwing in the "through Jesus Christ" part at the end.

No wonder my prayers were never answered, I was praying to the wrong person. I quit praying when I was fading from the JW religion, I felt I was unworthy and a bad person because I didn't want to be a JW anymore. I never ever was mad at JAH or Christ, I just didn't think I could ha e a relationship with them unless I was a JW.



No ZOE...
We prayer to Jah through CHRIST. That is always the case. He is the only mediator we need. That is the difference. We do not need the GB or any other man- made means on our behalf.

As JWs we did not ever give CHRIST the proper honor because we always mentioned Jehovah in 99.9 percent of everything and trusted the FDS for the answer in all other things.

That was the first mistake and why we did not hear answers.
We made the FDS as a CHRIST trying to go to Jehovah.
Or the token " in Jesus name amen"....was not TRULY going through the Way, Door, the Truth.
Remember they do not even allow us to belong to him by eating of his flesh and drinking his blood at the memorial.
By denying this access, they cut him off as the true source and means to get to the father, Jah!

Undertstanding this now as you and I do....
Is how when we pray we can be answered, and how when we just need our brother and savior CHRIST to TALK TO and LISTEN TO ...He is there ALWAYS!

Hope this helps some
Love Justmom.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Quote:
So we should pray to Jesus Christ, not JAH? If so that is the difference of JW prayers which is to Jehovah and throwing in the "through Jesus Christ" part at the end.


We should PRAY... TO (and, hence, one way communication) JAH, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, dear Zoe (peace to you, luv!)... in the manner and for the things Christ taught us. What he taught was recorded by Matthew in the 6th Chapter of his account. WHEN we pray to JAH, we have go THROUGH Christ, the HOLY One of Israel. Just as the High Priest had to go THROUGH the Holy (of the tabernacle/temple) in order enter into the MOST Holy (Holy of Holies). No OTHER "Way" in, dear one, except THROUGH Christ (John 10:9; 14:6). Otherwise, we're really just standing outside and "shouting." Perhaps even praying to ourselves:

"Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood there and said this prayer to himself, "I thank you, God, that I am not grasping, unjust, adulterous like everyone else, and particularly that I am not like this tax collector here..." Luke 18:10, 11


On the other hand, we should TALK... WITH... and listen TO... Christ. A TWO-way communication process.

Quote:
No wonder my prayers were never answered, I was praying to the wrong person.


Well, if you mean "Jehovah," yes, possibly. Although the MOST HOLY One of Israel knows who people MEAN... and that perhaps, because they have not yet had His name REVEALED to them... may be calling Him by another name. Don't worry about that, dear one. He knows your INTENT.

Quote:
I quit praying when I was fading from the JW religion, I felt I was unworthy and a bad person because I didn't want to be a JW anymore. I never ever was mad at JAH or Christ, I just didn't think I could ha e a relationship with them unless I was a JW.


Well, now you know different, yes?! WHOO-HOOO! We should NEVER stop praying (to JAH), though, dear one. As Luke also recorded:

"Then he told them a parable about the need to pray continually and never lose heart:

"'There was a judge in a certain town,' he said, 'who had neither fear of God nor respect for anyone. In the same town there was also a widow who kept on coming to him and saying, "I want justice from you against my enemy!" For a long time he refused, but at last he said to himself, "Even though I have neither fear of God nor respect for any human person, I must give this widow her just rights since she keeps pestering me, or she will come and slap me in the face." '

"And the Lord said, 'You notice what the unjust judge has to say? Now, will not God see justice done to his elect if they keep calling to him day and night even though he still delays to help them? I promise you, he will see justice done to them, and speedily."
Luke 18:1-8

The thing is:

1. Do NOT give up praying;
2. Consider what to pray FOR (put JAH, HIS desires, and HIS will first, luv!)
3. And LISTEN... for His WORD (Christ!) to respond to you, NOT JAH Himself:

Acts 8:26
Acts 9:4, 5, 10-15
Acts 10:1-4, 13, 14, 19
Revelation 1:1; 19:10, 13; 22:9


Because He speaks... and reveals... through His Son, to Whom He has given ALL authority... in heaven AND on earth.

KISS... the SON... the One He raised UP for us, dear Zoe! Psalm 2:12; John 3:14, 15

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:26 pm 
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There is a thread on prayer here, and I looked it up, but it does dissolve into a battle. But the thread is in the Walking by Faith section, and it is called, Can we discuss prayer? (I think)


I would also like to make one simple statement that very often gets lost in the hubub.

This current conflict did not come about because we were trying to tell someone else about their faith. But rather because someone else was trying to define our faith for us, telling us that we are wrong. Saying that what we are doing is prayer, when we state that it is not... because we know the difference between the two things that we do.

This began with someone telling US, that we must call our conversations with Christ... prayer; and that we are wrong to think otherwise. Defining for us, an aspect of our faith. So that we must then highlight the difference, and then the accusations come that we are the ones calling into question another's faith.

Just sayin'.


Peace,
tammy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Zoe wrote:
So we should pray to Jesus Christ, not JAH? If so that is the difference of JW prayers which is to Jehovah and throwing in the "through Jesus Christ" part at the end.

No wonder my prayers were never answered, I was praying to the wrong person. I quit praying when I was fading from the JW religion, I felt I was unworthy and a bad person because I didn't want to be a JW anymore. I never ever was mad at JAH or Christ, I just didn't think I could ha e a relationship with them unless I was a JW.


Do you think that God ignores prayers because the person may be directing it in the "wrong way"?
It is what is in our hearts, not the words we use.
What a weak and petty God is this that we have that would deny those that pray to Him in love because they may not pray the "official and authorized" way.
If God is THAT God, then I don't want to know Him.


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