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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:39 am 
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You dear ones will note (peace to you ALL!) that while I did post THE definition of "prayer" (its evolvement notwithstanding), I also included the etymology... for the very purpose that my Lord said to do so as some would take issue with said definition... and point to its MODERN "definition" as a means to try and dilute the truth. As always, he was correct.

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Naturally, the limitations of years spent within the tight confines of Watchtower restrictions is understood


Again, I am quite curious: why is it OKAY to continually point out the deficiencies, fallacies, misleadings, etc., of ONE particular religious system... and not ANOTHER/OTHERS? Where, PRAY tell... is the OUTCRY for the continual "revelations" as to the falsehood of ONE particular religion... when ALL of them are false?!

Dear ones, if we are to restrain from revealing/addressing/alluding to the deficiencies, fallacies, misleading, false teachings, false doctrines, etc., of one religion, then we should restrain from revealing/addressing/alluding to such as to ALL. Or, alternatively, if we believe we SHOULD reveal/address such deficiencies, fallacies, misleadings, false teachings, false doctrines, etc., on ONE of them... then we should be open to doing so as to ALL. Including, should such exist, as to our OWN religion/beliefs.

Yes?

Else... we are hypocrites, only wanting to point the finger at OTHERS, but not be able to withstand when it is pointed at US. We should not fight/argue/contend, no... but if God is FOR us... who can be AGAINST us? And so our particular religion/belief should be able to stand up to scrutiny, by whoever understakes to scrutizine it, yes? And rather than take offense when it IS scrutinized, we should endeavor to simply provide a defense, if we can... so as to help others see WHY we believe what we do! So long as their scrutiny and our defense can be done "with civility and decency," etc., as the forum rules require.

Yes?

But to continually and publicly take issue with one particular religion/set of beliefs... while taking with others for pointing out the same, similar, or perhaps ever worse issues with out own... is hypocrisy. And we're supposed to "beware" hypocrisy.

Yes?

A very curious phenomenon, indeed.

Again, peace to you all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:54 am 
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I didn't see that being in the JW religion that it limited prayer and praying anymore than other religions other than that women can't give a prayer out loud in the prescence of baptised MEN unless she has a head covering which is stupid. How is prayer limited with the JW's? They do not believe in repeating preset prayers over and over but rather pray with their own words through Jesus Christ. I am not defending therm but I didn't think prayer was one of their downfalls.

In fact I thought they prayed too much in the wrong places and circumstances and it was embarrassing when you are in a restaurant or have worldly company and your Dad has to pray for 20 minutes and the food gets cold. LOL.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:56 am 
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YppuplleH wrote:
Not sure as to the reliability of the text but isn't Jesus said to have taught how to pray when asked?

Our Father who are in heaven....etc


He did, Pup. He did.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:56 am 
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I know that christian explanations will include that, Char. But words change their meaning according to people changing their understanding, and it is important to understand the meaning of the word as it was originally stated. Else we may be applying inaccurate meaning to something, creating a whole set of mistakes.

Of course, experience can help us to see also, regardless of what any dictionary or theological definition states.

Now I have most certainly had my prayers answered, and I believe this is what you also refer to as prayer. For one example, I prayed for eyes to see, and ears to hear, and I prayed for the Holy Spirit, and then I put faith in that my prayers WOULD be answered; no doubt in my mind AT ALL. And those prayers were all answered, in Christ... in hearing Him, in understanding Him, in having faith in Him.

However, I have also simply asked questions of my Lord, the Spirt of Christ, and had Him answer them. Or tell ME something when I was not even asking a question, so that He initiates communication. I am not praying at the time.

Visions and revelations and dreams are not prayer. These are communication to US. As is Him speaking to US, and He does speak to everyone, though everyone does not hear or listen to Him. If others are not hearing Him in that manner - and again it is HIM speaking to US often upon His own initiation - then perhaps consider that it is something other than prayer.

Now if you want to umbrella that all under the category of prayer, then do so. But when/if you do not hear the same, please do not take away from those who do hear Him and not during prayer... by telling them that it is just prayer, and everyone does it, while at the same time saying that "it does not work that way". Because not everyone hears, and many fight against this very idea. If not against the whole idea of Christ speaking; then against the idea that one can put their faith in what He tells them.

But if you hear Him speaking, and do not put faith in what He says and teaches you, then what is the point of Him speaking to begin with? How can that even be considered putting faith in Him, if you do not put faith in what He tells you?

Peace,
tammy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:02 am 
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Just prayer, Tammy? Just?

For a good number of people, life itself is prayer.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:03 am 
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Zoe wrote:
Quote:
Shelby wrote:
In BOTH instances one can see that PRAYER... is a one-way effort. TO God... but not necessarily back FROM God (which, understandably, can be frustrating, and perhaps accounts for why many leave OFF praying "to" God).

This is so true and why I don't pray as I never heard back or got anything answered.


This is why so many do lose faith and do stop praying.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:08 am 
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Zoe wrote:
I didn't see that being in the JW religion that it limited prayer and praying anymore than other religions other than that women can't give a prayer out loud in the prescence of baptised MEN unless she has a head covering which is stupid. How is prayer limited with the JW's? They do not believe in repeating preset prayers over and over but rather pray with their own words through Jesus Christ. I am not defending therm but I didn't think prayer was one of their downfalls.

In fact I thought they prayed too much in the wrong places and circumstances and it was embarrassing when you are in a restaurant or have worldly company and your Dad has to pray for 20 minutes and the food gets cold. LOL.


One can argue that almost every religion has certain practices of prayer that we/some/many do not agree with.
Praying to saints as some RC do for example.
Praying to Christ VIA a "go between" as some do.
Praying to God but not through Christ.
Praying to God by merely repeating words.
Etc...

One of the things that ALWAYS bothered with the JW prayers I heard was how they just "threw" in Jesus' name at the end.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:10 am 
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Quote:
Not sure as to the reliability of the text but isn't Jesus said to have taught how to pray when asked?


He did, dear Pup (mornin' and peace to you!)... not just how (never in front of others - Matthew 6:5... and where (in your private room, with the door closed, thus, "in secret" - Matthew 6:6)... but to WHOM. As you rightly quoted:

"Our FATHER... in the heavens"...

At the time he taught his disciples this... where was HE? When HE prayed, when did he EVER do so in front of his disciples (and please note, giving thanks is NOT prayer - we should ALWAYS give thanks, and even publicly; however, PRAYER... is another thing entirely. It is a VERY private thing, between the person and God. Which is why HE always went off a ways from his disciples when HE did it. That some may have convertly followed him was not on him - he sought privacy whenever he prayed to his Father... who was in the heavens and NOT on the earth, as he (Christ) was).

He also taught us what to pray FOR: NEVER our own will or needs, but (1) that the Father's NAME be glorified/sanctified/held holy, (2) that HIS kingdom come/be established (which means the conclusion of the choosing of those who make up the Body of His Son, the NEW "Jerusalem"), (3) that HIS (the Father's) will is done (and so NOT ours) on the earth, just as it is now in the spirit realm, (4) that the Father CONTINUE to allow us to partake of the flesh of His Son, the "daily" manna from heaven, (5) that He forgive us our debts/sins/trespasses... AS we forgive others theirs' against us (and so, if we DON'T, then ours will NOT be!), and that (6) He protect us from the Adversary so that we are not led by that one into temptation... as that one tried to lead our Lord.

As for our PHYSICAL needs... food, clothing, shelter, etc., we are NOT to ask for those things... because doing so assumes that JAH doesn't already KNOW we need them... and so won't provide them UNLESS we ask. He KNOWS... and provides. Matthew 5:25-32 So we aren't supposed to concern ourselves with such things.

Rather, we are supposed to concern ourselves with the KINGDOM... seeking IT... and ITS righteousness (love, justice, mercy, faith, peace, etc.)... and all of OUR needs will be taken care of BY the Father. For HE is righteous and so, UNLIKE us... won't leave us without what we NEED. And HE knows... better than we EVER could... what that is, what those needs TRULY are. If we put HIS desires FIRST, though... then we can have FAITH are OUR needs... and perhaps even our desires... will be taken care of!

When we DO need to ask for something, however... we must ask the SON (John 14:13, 14; 15:1-7.

Because we can't even get IN to the Father, BEFORE Him... unless the SON permits it! John 14:6

But there is no NEED to go to the Father to ask for ANYTHING... other than for HIS name to be hallowed, HIS will to be done, HIS kingdom to come, HIS "bread" to be given us, HIS forgiveness for our sins/trespasses, and HIS protection from temptation by the Adversary! Why? BECAUSE HE HAS APPOINTED ONE FOR WHICH WE ARE TO GO FOR ALL OTHER THINGS.

That is why we have the account of Joseph and Pharaoh, dear one. An account that shows were a man, who gave the glory to GOD for his "gifts" and did not take credit for them for his own... was seen as "worthy" by Pharaoh to be appointed over ALL of Pharaoh's belongings... and so the one to DISPENSE such to Pharaoh's people... without them having to go to PHARAOH himself. HE, that appointed One ("Joseph") is the one who the people had to accept, had to regard, had to listen to, had to do obeisance to, had to ask of (from what BELONGED to Pharaoh)... and had to go THROUGH if they ever wanted an "audience" with Pharaoh.

To go past Joseph and directly to Pharaoh... was impossible. It would have been tantamount to breaking into Pharaoh's chambers. And it the SAME as with JAH and Christ.

Want something from Pharaoh? Go to Joseph and ask for it. Want something from God? Go to Christ... and ask for it. Want to talk to Pharaoh? Go to and through Joseph. Want to talk to God? Go to and THROUGH Christ. Want to go before Pharaoh? Only Joseph could grant that privilege. Want to go before God? Only Christ can grant that privilege.

Folks talk and talk all day long about how they "know" Christ. They do not. They know OF Christ. They talk about how they "know" God. They do not. Because they CAN'T know God... if they DON'T know Christ.

They couldn't see, approach, speak to, beseech, ask of... or talk WITH Pharaoh... without going through Joseph. In the SAME way... NO ONE can SEE... APPROACH... SPEAK TO... BESEECH... ASK OF... or talk WITH God... without going THROUGH Christ.

That is why he, Christ, is called the "WORD" of God... and the "Door," dear one (John 10:1-9).

Joseph was not only out and among the people... he spoke to them. Christ is not only alive and among HIS people; he SPEAKS to them.

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:15 am 
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Chariklo wrote:

"Prayer is the practice of the presence of God."

That'll do for me. It encompasses everything and anything at all. Prayer is the meeting point between man and God, man (or woman!) and Christ, even man and the Holy Spirit, who surely moved me to search for exactly that phrase, having absolutely no idea of what would result.


Good morning to you dear Char, and everyone!

All prayer to Jah is granted ONLY through CHRIST as he is the way into the most holy before the presence of Jah as high priest.

Remember " I ( CHRIST) am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father ( in prayer) except through me."

So I must mention that I must disagree with the quote that says " prayer is the meeting place between man and god or man and CHRIST."

Christ IS the meeting place between man and God.
It is Him that grants entry to be able to petition, beg, ask, Pray!
Jah " hears us " and answers us by means of his son. Hebrews 1:1,2

The son, our brother, is always here to listen and speak as The Holy Spirit to guide us in ALL things relating to truth.

Our prayers are heard by the father and answered by the father through the son as " all power and authority has been given him."


Just a thought
Love Justmom


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:20 am 
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Chariklo wrote:
Just prayer, Tammy? Just?

For a good number of people, life itself is prayer.


Don't read something negative into that, Char.

Saying "just" prayer... is simply a means of distinguishing it from something else, in addition TO. Nothing derogatory about my statement or my meaning.

Peace,
tammy


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:28 am 
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Quote:
But words change their meaning according to people changing their understanding, and it is important to understand the meaning of the word as it was originally stated. Else we may be applying inaccurate meaning to something, creating a whole set of mistakes.


Often the work of the false stylus, dear tec (peace to you!). Hence, "Woe to you... scribes, hypocrites!"

Quote:
This is why so many do lose faith and do stop praying.


If they were taught the TRUTH, though, dear P (peace to you, as well!)... that the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... DOES speak... THROUGH HIS SON... so that such ones are RIGHTLY taught to listen to HIM (that Son, God's WORD!)... instead of expecting to hear directly from God Himself...

If folks would stop DENYING that that Son SPEAKS... DIRECTLY... to mankind... so that those who are WISHING to CAN hear him...

So, that such ones would TURN THEIR GAZE... and so their EARS... TO that One... the One through Whom God SPEAKS to mankind (Proverbs 8:4)...

THEN they would hear HIM answering them... and so RECEIVE the answers "from God" that they seek... which answers from THROUGH him, God's WORD... and so CONTINUE praying TO God... as well as SPEAKING... WITH... Christ.

SEE??? (I know you do, dear one, but just trying to make a point to some others who perhaps still don't quite get it. And sorry, not shouting - just typing REAL fast - LOLOLOL!)

Quote:
One of the things that ALWAYS bothered with the JW prayers I heard was how they just "threw" in Jesus' name at the end.


Yes, as if that makes a difference, gets them "in" to be heard! Not at all! They have to go TO him and get his permission TO enter... FIRST! And then, UPON entering, having to invoke his name, in essence saying FIRST that it's in his name they are coming! I mean, picture someone just barging into before the Queen of England, rattling off a bunch of words, and then, just before leaving, saying, "In so and so's name I've come."

I am POSITIVELY CERTAIN that if they didn't have a letter (of recommendation), indeed an APPOINTMENT, or at least identified who it was that would stand up and speak for/recommend them when they first ARRIVED... they wouldn't get in. If we know that as to HUMAN rulers... how in the WORLD do we think we can disrespect the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, by just barging in before HIM... without having gone through and received the approval of Christ... FIRST? ("NO ONE comes to the Father... EXCEPT... THROUGH... ME").

Folks disrespecting them both... all over the place. Doesn't mean one WON'T get it; just means they've broken in and so are considered a thief and robber:

'In all truth I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheepfold through the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a bandit. ... I am the gate. Anyone who enters through me will be safe: such a one will go in and out and will find pasture..." John 10:1, 9

True, even thieves can be granted mercy. Perhaps even allowed to speak. However, how much FURTHER IN can one go... and how much more one can say... and how much more will what one says be HEARD... if one enters through the DOOR/GATE? Which one can only do if such is OPENED to them.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:31 am 
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Quote:
If they were taught the TRUTH, though, dear P (peace to you, as well!)... that the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... DOES speak... THROUGH HIS SON... so that such ones are RIGHTLY taught to listen to HIM (that Son, God's WORD!)... instead of expecting to hear directly from God Himself...

If folks would stop DENYING that that Son SPEAKS... DIRECTLY... to mankind... so that those who are WISHING to CAN hear him...

So, that such ones would TURN THEIR GAZE... and so their EARS... TO that One... the One through Whom God SPEAKS to mankind (Proverbs 8:4)...

THEN they would hear HIM answering them... and so RECEIVE the answers "from God" that they seek... which answers from THROUGH him, God's WORD... and so CONTINUE praying TO God... as well as SPEAKING... WITH... Christ.


I can't comment on why others can't hear Him.
I can comment on why I didn't and on why I still don't sometimes:
I put up a wall between Me and Him.
I put it there, no one else does, I do it.
Why?
Sadness, pain, fear, pretty much any negative feeling really.
Sometimes I am just angry with Him.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:32 am 
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Zoe wrote:
I didn't see that being in the JW religion that it limited prayer and praying anymore than other religions other than that women can't give a prayer out loud in the prescence of baptised MEN unless she has a head covering which is stupid. How is prayer limited with the JW's? They do not believe in repeating preset prayers over and over but rather pray with their own words through Jesus Christ. I am not defending therm but I didn't think prayer was one of their downfalls.

In fact I thought they prayed too much in the wrong places and circumstances and it was embarrassing when you are in a restaurant or have worldly company and your Dad has to pray for 20 minutes and the food gets cold. LOL.



No, neither did I Zoe. They did many things wrong but they opened up personal prayer for me in a wonderful way. I found the freedom and joy to be able to speak to Jah from my heart as opposed to the recited prayers the church had demanded from me previously. It paved the way very definitely for a deep personal relationship with Jah which I continue to have. As PSac says I felt they didn't give Christ due honour but they did always direct us to address our prayers through Him.

Loz x

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:34 am 
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tec wrote:


Now I have most certainly had my prayers answered, and I believe this is what you also refer to as prayer....

However, I have also simply asked questions of my Lord, the Spirt of Christ, and had Him answer them. Or tell ME something when I was not even asking a question, so that He initiates communication. I am not praying at the time....

Visions and revelations and dreams are not prayer. These are communication to US. As is Him speaking to US, and He does speak to everyone, though everyone does not hear or listen to Him. If others are not hearing Him in that manner - and again it is HIM speaking to US often upon His own initiation - then perhaps consider that it is something other than prayer...

Now if you want to umbrella that all under the category of prayer, then do so
. But when/if you do not hear the same, please do not take away from those who do hear Him and not during prayer... by telling them that it is just prayer, and everyone does it, while at the same time saying that "it does not work that way"....

Peace,
tammy



Thank you for sharing this Tammy...

And this is what will continually be the " back and forth."

Saying prayer is the same thing as a personal conversation with Christ. It just does not seem possible or reasonable to think that he would or can do such a thing for us puny humans.
But that is what the beauty is of this good news, he is not only here for us continually and daily, he is "ALIVE and SPEAKS" as the glorified Holy Spirit ever since he left the earth. That's how close and personal he can be towards ALL of us! What an underserved kindness and true love he has for us.

Thank you again
Love Justmom.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Quote:
I can't comment on why others can't hear Him.
I can comment on why I didn't and on why I still don't sometimes:
I put up a wall between Me and Him.
I put it there, no one else does, I do it.
Why?
Sadness, pain, fear, pretty much any negative feeling really.
Sometimes I am just angry with Him.



There are many reasons why some can't/don't hear, dear P (again, peace to you!), but you are quite right: it is ALWAYS us... and never him. Ever. Sadly, most cry, "Why isn't HE speaking to ME?!" rather than, "Why is it that I can't/don't/won't HEAR?!"

If we all do as you state here... and look at ourselves and OUR errors/deficiencies... rather than trying to push our OWN righteousness and insinuate that the "flaw" is with God, Christ... or others ("The woman YOU gave me, SHE...!"), then we can at least START to see what might be "standing in the way"... of the Way.

There is no reason to be ASHAMED of our deficiencies, per se - we all have them and allow them to block our hearing, at first. The shame is in not allowing ourselves to ADMIT... so as to SEE our own deficiencies... so as to know how and WHAT to ask him for help WITH... so as to get RID of them. To know what to ask him to help to REMOVE... so that we CAN hear.

I repeatedly had to ask (and still [have to] ask!) "PLEASE, dear Lord, have MERCY on me! HELP me OVERCOME my anger/selfishness/lack of faith/lack of love, etc. PLEASE... ASK the Father on behalf of your servant girl... to GRANT me a portion of the 'fruit' of His holy spirit that is LOVE... and patience/long-suffering... and peace... and mildness... and... and... PLEASE... so that I can move PAST this anger/selfishness/lack of love/faith... and get the "master" over it! MAKE me hear you! MAKE me do His will! OPEN my ears... even if you know I don't WANT to hear because I fear it may be too unbearble - MAKE me hear it and HELP me bear it! GIVE me ears when I don't have them! Ask him to PREPARE for me a body that WILL hear you!"

Sometimes... with tears, as I am sure and others can understand.

Because it IS us, dear one, yes, that always stands in the way. Always. Without exception. Even me, your servant and his, had to learn this. It is ALWAYS our lack (of faith)... or some other obstacle... that we ALLOW to stand in the way. His voice, though, is ALWAYS to the sons of mankind. ALWAYS. Calling us... guiding us... leading us. If only we would listen... and follow.

HIS sheep do. Listen. And follow. Because they know his voice.

Thank you, truly, for sharing that truth as to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), who is the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies,

Shellama


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