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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 8:07 am 
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I was brought up a JW and my Father and my Mother both believed in a woman being in subjection to a man and especially her husband. I have vivid memories of my Father taking a belt or his hand to my Mom and turning her over his knee. I was thinking it was violent and crying and screaming at hom to leave her alone but he said to go to my room or I would get the same and my Mom said she deserved it so don't worry. They thought it was bible based.
I don't believe that it is a Christian thing to do and I believe its abuse not love.
This depiction reminds me of my childhood memories:

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:18 pm 
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What a lovely set of verses for certain men to twist to their advantage, yes, dear Zoe (peace to you, luv!)? And sadly, for "weak" (as in puerile) women whose true desire is to be "taken care of" (because they are still "children" and so can't/don't want to take care of themselves)... both of whom are "always learning but never coming to an ACCURATE knowledge of Christ, the Truth" 2 Timothy 3:1-8.

And, yes, I know some are going to take offense... and exception... to that comment, given Paul also being the one (?) who said women are to be "workers at home." But that women ARE does NOT mean they become children such that a husband is to treat them so or they are to act like such.

The only "child" we are to become is that for Christ. And THAT is how the whole "subjection" thing is supposed to be. A woman does not submit to a husband in EVERYTHING. I mean, what if he's a Phillip Gallido and wants to steal some young girl to "service" him? Do you go along with that? Of COURSE not.

And some men and women (including, but certainly not limited to JWs!) go farther and take it to mean women are to submit to men IN GENERAL. But let's look at the verses and what they SAY. We have to start a verse or so prior, though, to get what Paul was TRULY saying.

He FIRST writes:

"Submit to one another... out of reverence for Christ."

So, EVERYONE is to submit... to EVERYONE... out of reverence for CHRIST.

He then takes it into homes:

"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord."

Notice the qualifier: "as you do TO THE LORD." What does Christ require, though, in our submission to him? Helping him abuse his other "children"? Doing what he "says"... just "because" he says it... and "punishing" us if we don't? Or simply loving HIM... by loving OTHERS, including God... even including our enemies?

"For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

Do you see the TWO qualifiers there, that a husband is head of the wife "AS" Christ is head of the Body? And in submitting to their husbands in everything it should be "AS" the Body submits to Christ? What does this mean? It means that:

(1) husbands are to be heads in the SAME way as Christ carries out HIS headship: HIS "yoke" is KINDLY, and HIS "load" LIGHT... and always, ALWAYS, carried out in LOVE. And so husbands should be LIKE Christ... in their "husbandly" positions; and

(2) wives should submit ourselves LOVINGLY to our husbands, AS the Body submits lovingly to Christ. And so wives should be like Abigail (whom David took to be HIS wife after she showed prudence and TRIED to save her husband's life when he insulted the king) and Esther (who submitted herself to Ahasharues in order to save her people)... and NOT like Michal (who took issue with David for dancing when bringing the Ark up to Jerusalem, rather than REJOICING with him over the event, because he embarassed her) and Vashi (who ignored the summons of her husband, a KING, when he called for her to attend court with him). And Sarah... who had such respect for her husband she called him "lord"... but NOT so much fear of him that she was about to let him name, Ishmael, the son of her SERVANT, Hagar, as his heir. Oh no, she spoke up... when she SHOULD have. And while she wasn't a harpy (like Michal), she wasn't "mealy" mouthed, either.

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ... to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."

Again, the qualifier "as". Christ didn't BEAT his Body into submission, dear one! He gave HIS life FOR her... so that SHE could become holy, SHE could be cleansed... SHE could become his RADIANT Body... WITHOUT stain, wrinkle, or blemish! If, however, a man BEATS his wife... physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually... or otherwise abuses her so that she BECOMES blemished... wrinkled... even bruised... how is he loving her AS Christ loved HIS Body? She is no longer "holy"... but damaged, yes? But... it will be his fault, because he has "damaged" something that does not BELONG to him to do so, whether physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or what have you. Because like HIM... SHE... belongs to Christ. And, just like it is NOT our right to abuse our children, which are gifts to us, to raise and cherish... we being merely surrogates for a time... is it NO man's right to abuse his wife... in ANY way. Or she him.

And so Paul clarifies further:

"In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies."

He makes an even more important statement here:

"He who loves his wife loves himself."

And that is the jist, isn't it? A man who does not love his wife, but is abusive to her... does not love HIMSELF. Same thing with parents who abuse their children: they don't love THEMSELVES... and so take their frustration out on their children. Now, true, that lack of self love may have come from not being/feeling loved by THEIR parents. And their parents feeling the same as to their parents before.

But isn't that the POINT, that those who come to Christ are supposed the BREAK the "cycle" of "worldly" behavior... are supposed to be SUBDUED... and learn PEACE... with ALL? And should not such peace start with our OWN flesh... and households? How can we be loving our neighbor "as" ourselves, though, if we don't love OURSELVES?? Will we not pass on to our neighbors the LACK of love we have... for ourselves?

Self love, though, is not based on what OTHERS think, or whether OTHERS love you. Self love starts... WITH self. And is fomenting by FORGIVING oneself, where one needs to. So that one can forgive OTHERS. But one can't/won't forgive oneself... if one believe they ARE forgiven... by God/Christ. And one cannot be forgiven by God/Christ... if one doesn't ask FOR such forgiveness. And one can't ask... if one doesn't discern WHAT one needs to be forgiven FOR.

It is a "bad" conscience that leads to abuse of others. A bad conscience that leads to self-hatred... and is manifest in hatred of others. REGARDLESS of how "loving" toward others one wants others to believe they are. And outward manifestation is not necessarily evidence of the TRUTH.

Continuing with Paul:

"After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the churchfor we are members of his body."

And who of us would knowingly abuse another member of CHRIST'S Body? Yet, is not a man's wife a member same as he? And so, just as a man will care for his own fleshly body... feed and care for it... he must care for the woman (and children) of HIS body... his wife... just AS Christ cares for (kindly, mildly, and lovingingly) and feeds (regularly and sufficiently)... HIS Body.

In the next verse, Paul shares how he is really taking with reference to the Body of Christ, when he writes about the union of the Spirit and HIS Bride:

“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."

This is because just as Christ and HIS Body will become one... flesh of HIS flesh and bone of HIS bone... in SPIRIT (as Eve was called such by Adham). That is why "she" is called his "Bride" - when they are finally in TRUE union (versus simply being betrothed right now)... they will be one. But he brings it back to the humans IN that Body:

"However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

So, often, we find religions that teach that husbands are happier when they are in control... and wives are happier when they are controlled. Both are LIES. Sure, there are some men who ARE controlling and so such a situation is happier... for THEM... but that is due to their insecurities, which blinds them. As is with women who need to BE controlled: insecurities and blindness. And vice versa - women who NEED to control are dealing with their own insecurities and blindness, as are men who need to BE controlled.

When those who are Members of the Body of Christ remember that HE is in control, though, and that we are OBLIGATED to treat others of HIS Body... even if they are our own spouse or child... "as" HE would treat them... no one needs to control anyone... and no one needs by be controlled BY anyone, except Christ. And, again, HIS yoke is "kindly" and HIS load "light."

Abusing one's spouse and/or child(ren) is like "beating" one's fellow slaves. Since ALL are slaves, such one will eventually have to account for that to the MASTER of both.

One's wife or female child is one's SISTER... FIRST... THEN one's wife/child, dear one... and one's husband/male child is one's BROTHER, first, THEN one's husband/child. This is particularly true within the Body of Christ, and ESPECIALLY if one marries one ALREADY in the Body when they wed. They are, in essence, marrying a brother/sister in Christ... and so their obligation starts from THAT point.

I hope this helps, dear Zoe, truly. If one wishes to see how husbands and wives SHOULD be toward one another, though, one need to read Paul... or even what I have posted here... about it. All one need do is look at... and to... Christ... and how HE handles himself as a "husband"... and wishes his "wife/Bride" to handler HERSELF as to him. No need to look to anything... or anyone... else: he is the answer, luv.

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:47 pm 
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I submit to my wife and she submits to me.
Kinky.... >:)

On a serious note, not much can be added to what Shel posted above.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Quote:
I submit to my wife and she submits to me.


And there you go! LOLOLOLOL!

Peace, my dear bruh!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama, trying to hurry up and "wash" her "brain" of THAT visual - Praise JAH I forgot what you all look like - LOLOLOL!

P.S. Gotta correct some "stuff":

Quote:
one can't/won't forgive oneself... if one believe they ARE forgiven... by God/Christ


If one DOESN'T believe they are forgiven... by God/Christ...

Quote:
one need to read Paul... or even what I have posted here... about it.


One need NOT read Paul... or even what I have posted here...

Sorry...


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:09 pm 
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Zoe wrote:
I was brought up a JW and my Father and my Mother both believed in a woman being in subjection to a man and especially her husband. I have vivid memories of my Father taking a belt or his hand to my Mom and turning her over his knee. I was thinking it was violent and crying and screaming at hom to leave her alone but he said to go to my room or I would get the same and my Mom said she deserved it so don't worry. They thought it was bible based.
I don't believe that it is a Christian thing to do and I believe its abuse not love.
This depiction reminds me of my childhood memories:

Image


I wouldn't place much stock on what people with very little understanding of the bible say about it, truly.
You can take ANY book and make it seem to say things it doesn't.
The core Christian belief that EVERYTHING comes from and is based on is summed up best by Jesus's commandment to His followers:
Love each other as I have loved you.
Did Jesus ever hurt or strike them? did Jesus ever tell them to hurt others?
Nope, and How did He love them and Us?
He became human for Us.
He left being one with God, a pure unity of Love, for Us.
He suffered and felt pain and bleed and died for us in the most painful way that the world He came into could devise.
He extended His and His Fathers Love, forgiveness and grace to Us and the very people who killed Him.

That is the example we follow.

The Movie "Kingdom of Heaven" says it really well:
The OT God say OBEY
Allah says SUBMIT
Jesus says CHOOSE.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Wonderful comments here.

Thank you Shelby and Paul.

Hi Zoe 8)

Justmom


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Nothing to add from me either : ) I was going to say that it is convenient that some use that verse... to the exclusion of the ones directly surrounding it; never mind any understanding on love.

Peace to you!

tammy


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:43 pm 
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I am so sorry that you had to witness that Zoe. Some misapply scripture to their own ends, shocking as that is. The WTBS do more to help than hinder this.

Loz x

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Nicely explained Shelby, thank you. Shows how much certain people twist the scriptures and then use them to suit their agendas. I of course know that my Dads interruptation (plus many who are not JWs) was/is very wrong and it made me hate the religion. Now I know that not all twist and cherry pick the scriptures so they have an excuse to be abusive.

I will tell you the story of what abusive stuff my Dad did in the name of the "truth" that was the final straw one day soon.

I brought up this subject because it has always bugged me how people use religion and the bible or the Koran or whatever to justify their actions. Like some of the Muslims and their hate for non-Muslims and saying it's good to strap on a bomb and kill yourself to kill infidels. Or how women are to be all covered up in a tent.
Or a huge peeve I have is the ultra-orthodox Jews, OMG, that is just horrible how they treat women. They even pray to God and thank him that they were not born a woman grrrrrr.

Thanks for the comments and listening to me.


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