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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:24 am 
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Recently because of my new interest in spiritual things and the truth I have come across a lot of people and religions that are Trinitarians. My daughter is interested in a non mainstream Church which seems to have a lot of good in them but their main statement is they believe in the Trinity. Another group I joined on Facebook is totally non-Trinitarian and won't let you join if you believe in it.

What is all this hype about it?? Why is the Trinity so important to some religions and why does it cause so much anger and argument if you don't believe it.

I don't believe the Trinity because I was brought up a JW but I never really learned about the other side and why they believe its true. I never really cared actually but now I do want to know truth and be able to understand why the others believe its true. To my mind it doesn't make sense and I see Christ as a person separate from Jah, two different personalities like Father and son. The Holy spirit to me is not a personality but a force like the wind or electricity??

It seems its a major doctrine in some churches and a major No No. Can someone help me understand about this in a simple way.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:25 am 
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Oh and so sorry if there is already a thread about this here. I typed in Trinity in the search here and couldn't find a thread that was just about this subject.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:38 am 
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I posted about this on Quora just yesterday, dear Zoe (mornin' and peace to you... and hope you're feeling a bit better today). Unfortunately, the Quora site is experiencing some issues and so it's very slow and doesn't seem to have been updated since last Thursday. Rather than repost here, I will keep checking and when it comes up, post the link.

Take care of... and peace to... you!

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:26 am 
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Thanks Shelby.

I wanted to do a bit of research on this because I really have no idea how to tell my daughter or others why the Trinity is not the truth.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:46 am 
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I found this on Quora - I am cut and pasting too, hope that is okay.
Oh and Wow, this explanation seems so right but oh so complicated. I think I might need something simpler to explain to others. LOL

https://www.quora.com/What-should-I-do-if-I-believe-that-only-the-father-is-truly-god-but-not-Jesus-Am-I-still-a-Christian/answer/Shelby-Anguiano-1

Shelby Anguiano wrote - March 27th, 2017
You should examine whether what you believe is TRUE… or false.
First, let’s start with what is NOT true/is fully false:
“Jesus” is not true. That’s because there is no such person, at least not in relation to God (the Father, who many also refer to as the “Creator”). There JaH eShua (pronounced “Yah e shuwah”, and when said fairly quickly one can hear the closest true English translation, “Joshua”, but where the “J” is pronounced like a “Y”). “Jesus” is an inaccurate rendering of the Greek “Iesous”; however, “Iesous” is NOT an accurate rendering of the Hebrew, “Joshua” (or, as some write it out “Yehowshua”, although that is also inaccurate - phonetically, it would be “Yaheshwah”).
Many will tell you that “Iesous” is the Greek translation of “Jesus,” but that is inaccurate. We can know this because the Greek “Iesous” would need to be a translation of the Hebrew… and there is no Hebrew name for “Jesus.” There is “Jah eShua”, which many have (erroneously) translated to “Yeshua,” “Y’Shua,” “Yehoshua,” “Y’Hoshua,” “Yehowshua”, etc., but that’s because they mistake the Hebrew yodh for a “y” (rather than the “j” it truly is in such instances), the “vav” for a “waw” (which is often transfixed), and put in the wrong vowels (even where there are none).
The names, of both the Father and the Son, are spoken… and so phonetically-speaking, they are “JaH(VeH)” and “JaH e’Shua.”
Now, let’s look at what is partly true and partly false
Jah eShua is the Son of God and he is a god, and has been MADE “God.” And so, he is “God” as is the Father. BUT… he is not the “ALmighty God;” rather, he is the “Mighty” God, as Isaiah wrote:
“For to us a child is born,
 to us a son is given,
 and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
 Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
 Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6
See that? “Mighty God,” vs. “Almighty God.” And, yes, contrary to what some might tell you… there is a difference. A BIG difference. To help any with ears to hear understand this, recall the construction of the tabernacle and temple - BOTH had two “holy” compartments:
The “Holy”
The “Most Holy/Holy of Holies.”
These represent the Father (the MOST Holy/HOLY of Holies) and the Son (the Holy). And just as one (the high priest) had to go through the Holy to enter into the Holy of Holies (there was no other entrance/door/way in), mankind must go through Christ (the Holy) to enter before God (the Most Holy/Holy of Holies). There is no other “entrance/door”… or “way” in - John 10:9; 14:6
Notice also… there are only two. That’s because, contrary to the false teachings of (some) religion(s), there is not a third “person.” There are only two, the Father and the Son… the Son being the “Holy Spirit” that many attribute to a “third” person. (2 Corinthians 3:17). That “third” person falsehood came from the misunderstanding, thus mistransliteration, thus mistranslation of Christ’s words recorded at Matthew 28:19–20, which almost every Bible version missstates as:
“… go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”
Those words are in error. What he said was:
“… go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father… into the Son… with holy spirit.”
Hence, those who are baptized in the way he meant (which didn’t include water, except for the Jews and Samaritans - “Israel” - who had to “die” as to the OLD Law (Covenant) are baptized:
In the name of the FATHER (“JaH” - Psalm 68:4 - see Hebrew), which name is the meaning of and so included in the Son’s name (“JaH eShua” or “Jah Saves/Salvation of JaH”);
INTO the Son, so as to be part of HIS “Body” - 1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27
WITH holy spirit (i.e., such baptism being done by “holy spirit”… or “fire”) - Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:7, 8; John 1:33; Acts 2:1–4
This “holy spirit” is the blood, breath, and seed of God… the means of LIFE (which is the same for humans, but is HIS form of life - spirit)… and was precursored by the choosing of kings (i.e., Saul, David, Solomon, etc.) with an anointing with oil. That physical oil (fine olive oil, nard, etc.) was placed on the one “chosen” to be (a) king. When Christ arrived, that physical oil was replaced with “the oil of exultation,” the same “oil” that Christ, as God’s chosen king, was anointed with - God’s own spirit (life, breath, blood… seed). Psalm 45:6, 7; Matthew 26:6; Mark 14:3; Luke 14:18; Acts 4:26, 27; 10:38; 2 Corinthians 1:21; Hebrews 1:9
And so now, what is fully true:
Believing these things - that Christ is a God, albeit a Might God to the Father’s being the ALmighty God - indeed, knowing them for a certainty… does not make one a christian. It can make one [want to be] a disciple [of Christ], but being a “disciple” does not equate to being a “christian.” The former is one who follows the teachings of and may even be trained by another. They may also leave off following/being trained by such one. John 6:60, 66
Contrary to what you (and most of mankind) have been misled (by certain religions) to believe, being a “christian,” is not something one chooses [to be] for oneself. Rather, it requires a choosing… by Christ… with the direction of the Father (John 6:44; 15:16; John 17:6 ). And such choosing is “sealed” by an anointing with the Father’s blood… which blood… holy spirit… is in Christ (2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 4:30).
That spirit, God’s holy spirit… His blood, in this instance… is also called “water”… as in the “water of LIFE”. Christ is the Life (John 14:6) and that “water” comes from within him, flows out of him… and so it is this “water”… “LIVING ‘water’”… or “’LIFE’s’ (his) water”… holy spirit… that he gives FOR free - when he gives it. There is no money, no gold, etc., that can buy it - it is a GIFT - Luke 11:13; John 4:10, 13, 14; 6:37–39; Acts 1:4; 2:38; Acts 8:20, 21; 10:45; 11:17; Romans 5:15–17; 6:23; 11:29; Ephesians 2:8; James 1:17; Revelation 22:17
When he gives one that “water”… God’s “blood”… or life force… “holy spirit”… one is then protected from (eternal) death. Either their spirit will simply sleep (after the physical body has died) until it is resurrected (into a spirit body or “white robe” - clean, uncorruptible vessel, unlike the body of flesh) upon the return of Christ… or they never die… because they are changed (into such “white robe”) when Christ returns. John 11:25, 26; 1 Corinthians 15:20, 22, 23, 29, 35–49; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17; Revelation 20:4–6; Ezekiel 37:1–14
In addition to such protection, one might also receive “power” through that (holy) spirit to do things. These powers are referred to as “gifts” [of holy spirit]. I won’t go into those (unless asked) as they are beyond the scope here, which I have probably already surpassed.
But I hope that answers your questions… and helps.
I will say one more thing before closing, though, if I may, and that is that those who [deign] to “know” should consider:
Why did Moctezuma II value so much/put faith in a “city of gold”; and?
Who really where the “white” men he and his people were purportedly waiting for/expecting and presumed Cortes and company to be?
“Who” really was “Quetzalcoatl” to that culture?
Peace!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:46 pm 
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That's it, luv (again, peace to you!). Do you want me to repost with paragraphs, bolding, etc., to make it eas(ier) for folks to read?

Otherwise, thanks and I hope the information helps you, dear sister.

As always, may you have peace as Christ gives it!

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Greetings to you Zoe, peace to you, and peace to you Shel,

I found this under here. It is lengthy if you want to start from beginning but thought this response was very helpful with regards the conversation on the trinity...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=877
Enjoy, love your sister, servant and slave of Christ, Kim

Quote:
The issue with the "bitarian view" ( that there is only Father and Son and that the HS is, depending on the group, The Father, The son or just some "force") is that:


You are missing the TRUTH, still, dear P (mornin' and peace to you!): that there is holy spirit... or holy water/blood/breath/seed... which is JAH's life force (His blood, breath, and seed - the things that GRANT LIFE, even in THIS world)... and that there is the HOLY Spirit: Christ, the HOLY ONE of Israel... who, like JAH, is a SPIRIT... the LIFE-GIVING Spirit!

I will try and explain this to you as CLEARLY as possible; however, if one doesn't want to look up the scriptures/verses I include... absent going to and asking Christ himself... then one may STILL not get the TRUTH as to these things. Why? Because one will be relying on one's OWN understanding... and NOT JAH/Christ/holy spirit... and so will believe whatever it is they WISH to believe (still)... even if it ISN'T truth. If one would allow oneself a bit of humility, however, and condescend to at least CONSIDER what is written about these things... then one MIGHT be able to open oneself up to RECEIVING the truth... perhaps even from the SPIRIT of the Truth.

In that light:

The first, holy spirit that is JAH's life force is:

1. "Water"; and
2. "Oil" (of exultation)

As such, both of these are POURED OUT... UPON those who are chosen to receive it. The first, so as to CLEANSE... and the second, so ANOINT. If either WASHES... or FILLS... the one who receives it.

3. Blood;
4. Breath;
5. Semen/seed

As such, it grants LIFE... the REAL life... because it is the life that comes from JAH... NOT from our FLESHLY fathers... and so one who RECEIVES it we be LIKE JAH: able to know "good" (life) AND "bad" (death)... and yet LIVE. How so? Because this SPIRIT is what allows them to be resurrected... to ETERNAL life! Our OWN blood, breath, and seed/semen... CEASES when WE die, yes? But HIS blood, breath, and semen... continues FOREVER.

This is the SPIRIT... LIFE that Christ OFFERED up FOR mankind. After his resurrection, he BLEW it upon his Apostles. Because it can be granted in the form of BREATH - that is how ADHAM came to life: because JAH blew HIS spirit into Adham's nostrils. He then POURED IT OUT... upon those present in the upper room at Pentecost. He POURED it on such ones... by BLOWING UPON THEM, too! This is why they "heard a noise like a wind"! And before any of THIS... JAH poured it out upon HIM... in the form of a DOVE. Why the form of a dove? Because at THAT time, it was in the form of JAH's SEED: "This is my SON, whom I have APPROVED." It simply "floated down" and came UPON my Lord... ANOINTING him as JAH's Chosen One (Christ).

The second... Christ... AS the HOLY Spirit... is the Christ, GLORIFIED (John 7:37-39). He is a SPIRIT (as JAH is a spirit)... and he is the HOLY One. So... the HOLY Spirit... unlike all OTHER spirit beings (excluding JAH Himself)... who are NOT glorified and so are not "HOLY".

Where you and so many are getting hung up is:

1. The double use of the words "holy" and "spirit." For some reason, you can only see ONE rendering of those words, which I have to admit absolutely boggles MY mind. MANY words have double if not more meanings/uses. MANY. Why these two cause so many to "stumble"... is... inexplicable. Both words, "holy" AND "spirit" means several things... and are APPLIED to several things.

2. The "person" that is the Holy Spirit. This is ONLY because of three errors:

a. The misRENDERING of ONE Greek word "ekeinos" which means "he/she/it"... and the scribes chose to render as "he"... instead of accurately as "it"; which they did because THEY didn't have holy spirit leading THEM... and so relied on their OWN understanding.

b. The misUNDERSTANDING of Christ's direction to his disciples at Matthew 28:19, which led to another misRENDERING... one of THAT verse. My Lord did NOT tell his disciples to go baptizing "in the name of" the Father... and "the name of" the Son... and "the name of" the Holy Spirit. We can KNOW that because, first and foremost... the "Holy Spirit" that those who believe in a Trinity believe IN... DOESN'T HAVE A NAME! They can only refer to "him"... AS "him," "he", etc. If "he" HAD a name... Christ WOULD HAVE MADE IT KNOWN to those who belong(ed) to him. As he made the FATHER'S name known to them. John 17:6 What my Lord SAID was:

"Go, make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father (who's name they now KNEW)... INTO THE SON (meaning INTO Christ... by means of being baptized INTO HIS BODY)... IN HOLY SPIRIT (the "FIRE"... and "water"... that CLEANSES us so that we are BAPTIZED... into CHRIST, INTO HIS BODY)."

We can KNOW this... because JOHN, the ORIGINAL "Baptizer"... SAID that Christ would baptize us... WITH FIRE. And so, we have, for example, this account:

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive holy spirit when you believed?”

(Notice, I have removed the word "the"... because that is the CORRECT translation of the verse. The word "the" does NOT exist before ANY rendering of the words "holy spirit". I also uncapitalized them... because there were NO capital letters in the Greek and so where such exist they have been placed willy-nilly by those who lean on their OWN understanding and NOT because of the leading of Christ!)

Continuing:

"They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is holy spirit.”

(Notice, I quoted "is holy spirit" versus "there is A Holy Spirit." Because this is the CORRECT transliteration. Again, no capitalization for the same reason. However, the reason for this is because the Greek word "esti" means "to be" as with regard to a he/she/it. Now, those who are only familiar with the ENGLISH language may not understand why this is significant, but you, dear P, being familiar with Spanish, which derives from Latin... might. What does the word "este" in SPANISH mean? It is the SAME premise, dear one. It can apply to a he, she, OR it, yes? When one adds the "a", however, they change the entire meaning and premise. It's like saying these men said, "... we have not even heard that there is a blood... breath... seed." Versus, "... we have not even heard that there is blood... breath... seed." See?)

Continuing:

"So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

He asked this... because there were TWO baptisms at the time, yes? John tells us of them: "I baptize you WITH WATER... but one is coming who will baptize you WITH FIRE." Yes? And so, since these men responded:

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

Well, John's was the ONLY baptism... right? No, it was not! Again, JOHN himself told them of another baptism! And so, Paul told them:

“John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in [Jesus].” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord [Jesus]. When Paul placed his hands on them, holy spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." Acts 19:1-5

c. Folks FORGETTING that it was the NATIONS that worshipped triune gods... NOT Israel (JAH was ONE, NOT two OR three!). And this is probably the greatest error for those who profess to be a member of Christ's Body... because, by means of his spirit, which leads, guides, and teaches them... they should KNOW better. They should REMEMBER one of Israel's greatest errors: following after the gods of the nations!

These three things are really the ONLY reason for the entire error of the Trinity teaching! But it doesn't have to be that way!

Quote:
If the HS is Jesus, how does Jesus "send himself" as per those verses in John?


Exactly! He did NOT send himself OR holy spirit - the FATHER sent HIS holy spirit! First TO Christ... then, THROUGH Christ. Our Lord didn't HAVE to ask the Father... because he already HAD that spirit. And so, HE could have rebelled... as Adham did! But he DIDN'T: he asked... OUT OF HUMILITY! Why? Because (1) he never forgot that those who were his were GIVEN him... BY the Father; and (2) having given himself TO the Father, he said that HE... could DO... NOTHING of his OWN initiative." Not even send holy spirit. John 5:9, 10 And so, rather than usurp from the FATHER... he ASKED... the FATHER... to send it (John 14:16)... which that One did (John 15:26)... THROUGH our Lord.

Quote:
If the HS is The Father's siprit, why does it implied that He/it acts apart from The Father?


Dear P... nothing of the sort is implied, not at ALL. Even Christ can't even act apart from the Father, dear one. Because for him to do so would negate the very UNION he claims WITH the Father. And that's what he SAID, that he could do NOTHING... except what he learned from the Father, received from the Father, and/or saw the Father doing. Yes? And so he said that WE... those IN UNION with him... could do nothing... APART from HIM, either. Yes? John 15:5, 6

Quote:
If the HS is an impersonal force how can it teach, love, feel pain, joy and, perhaps more importantly, advocate for Us ?


If you are speaking of holy spirit that is God's blood/breath/seed... then "it" can't... but JAH CAN... THROUGH it! Because of the BOND it makes. Like... twins. Or mother/child. How these can "feel", say, when the other hurts, feels pain, is sick... is happy, etc. They are bound... BY BLOOD.

As for "it" feeling... the Holy Spirit that is CHRIST... can and DOES teach (which is why he alone is to be called "Teacher"!!)... love (because he ALONE fulfilled the Law COMPLETELY... DUE to love!)... feel pain (as when WE do; he groaned and wept when Lazarus died, felt pity for those suffering from illnesses, felt the piercing of his flesh... joy when another was "found", like Zacchaeus!)...

And HE... IS the advocate for us, dear one - the ONLY One who can plead for us with the Father:

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father— [Jesus] Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2

And...

"Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Romans 8:34

And...

"Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because [Jesus] lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." Hebrews 7:23-25

HE... Christ... IS the helper/advocate/comforter/paraclete... dear, dear P! HE is! HE... is the AMEN... the SO BE IT... the YES! HE LIVES! And... he SPEAKS!

But... sadly... people are so busy looking elsewhere... at religions and such... and others... at some third person... at a Pope, the men of a GB, some church leader... even at Peter. And so, because their eyes are on THESE... they cannot SEE the One God Himself RAISED UP! NOT just raised up from the DEAD... but RAISED UP... ABOVE Israel and ALL of mankind... so that if their gaze in on HIM... they will NOT DIE:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” John 3:14, 15

Dear one... HOW did Moses lift that image up... and WHY? And what happened when folks looked at it... and what happened when folks looked AWAY?

Christ is lifted up in the SAME way, dear one. "JUST AS" Moses lifted up that image... the ONLY image EVER to be commissioned... and gazing upon it sanctioned... by JAH Himself. Because THAT image represented HIS true "image"... His SON... the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, MischaJah.

KISS... the SON... lest God be angry... and you perish! NOT "Kiss [the third person that is the Holy Spirit]." Psalm 2:12

I truly, truly hope this helps, dear brother. Truly. I REALLY hope it helps. But I also know that it doesn't matter what I say; it only matters if you can hear the SPIRIT... and his Bride... when they say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"

Which you can hear, if you have ears to do so. May you be given such ears... if you truly wish them.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:09 pm 
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THANK YOU, dear, dear 'Mom, my dear sister!

Peace to you and your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:13 am 
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thanks so much - I will need to read it several times to absorb it LOL but this is the information I sought.

Shalom


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:52 am 
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I have no problem believing that there is no Trinity God, it really sounds very Pagan to me but then I was brought up a JW and taught that all other religions were wrong. I was also taught not to question anything the Watchtower taught.

Now I see that they were so wrong about the 2nd coming of Christ and Armageddon and so much more and its so obvious to me and now I cant understand why they don't see it especially now that The generation won't pass away until all these things are to be fulfilled has expired. They were right about the Trinity and Hellfire at least.

Anyway to get to the point, I don't understand why a lot of Christian religions especially the Catholic Church want to believe that there is 3 Gods in 1?? It almost is the basis of their religion. It changes the whole perspective of how to worship God and know Christ. It bobbles my mind now. But before it wasn't an issue for me and I could have cared less. Now I am so interested in understanding why they want to believe that way and how it got all mixed up and WRONGLY understood. What has happened to me LOL????


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Peace to you Zoe!

Zoe wrote:
Thanks Shelby.

I wanted to do a bit of research on this because I really have no idea how to tell my daughter or others why the Trinity is not the truth.



Does Christ teach it?


Because CHRIST is the Truth. The One God said to listen TO. If He doesn't teach it, then why would we believe it?


When I first learned about the concept of the trinity, and struggled to know whether it was true or false, I had to put everything aside that others were saying and teaching, and just go with Christ. He teaches that GOD is the Father; that HE (Christ) is the Son. He does not teach the trinity. There are lots of verses and reasoning for this, but you can see many of those in that thread that JM linked and on that thread you quoted from Shelby on Quora.


But that is the test - hold everything up to the Light that is Christ. No matter how many people believe something else. We are to follow Him.


Peace to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:28 pm 
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thanks Tammy!!!! I never felt that the Trinity made sense, never believed it but suddenly I needed to understand it more so I could explain why it is wrong. Now I have to dwell on this information, let it sink in and absorb so I will know how to defend my beliefs.
Love from Zoe


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