xjwsforChrist

"That is why many among you are weak and sick, and quite a few are sleeping in death."

May you all have peace!

The above verse is pursuant to a rendering by the WTBTS in their New World Translation bible version. The Greek word that they render "sleeping in death" (new NWT version) or "sleeping [in death]" (older version) is koimaō (G2837). The translations for that word are:



For whatever reason, the WTBTS chose to use the last definition, "to die." Early this morning, however, I learned from my Lord that that is the wrong rendering. His comments came to me in response to things I had shared with him last night, including but not limited to my recent neglect of him (I've been rushing through conversations, saying I would get back to him but not doing so because of being "busy" the past week, and apologizing for that and asking for help to do better). He said I was not to worry, he understood, and that so long as I didn't neglect my union with him, I would always be "connected."

Of course, I felt good about that and so fell asleep thinking about that union, what it meant, and the things he said to do to "remain in [union with] him". Including partaking of his flesh and blood. The last thing I remember thinking about before falling asleep was Paul's words to the early Body in Corinth, quoted above. It was this that my Lord woke me up to share, that Paul did not mean such ones had become weak and sick... or dead.. in the FLESH... but weak, sick, even dead... in SPIRIT. Why? Because, as he wrote FIRST, they were not scrutizining themselves, and so, were eating and drinking "unworthily"... because they were not DISCERNING Christ's body WHEN they ate and drank.

What did he mean by that? He meant:

1. They were not doing a self-examination, so that
2. They would know what they needed to "clean"/be cleansed of IN THEMSELVES
3. And so, WHEN they ate, they weren't eating of the "LEAVES" of the "Tree of LIFE"... which leaves are for the CURING [of the nations].

In other words, they weren't considering their own sin/error, and then discerning Christ's body as something they needed to LIVE, to be cleansed (of sin) FROM such sin/error so AS to live. It was just... bread. Flour and water baked into a cake/cracker. Nothing truly special.

And BECAUSE of this, they weren't TRULY in uion with Christ.

And because of THAT... they had become weak... or worse, sick... or worse, ASLEEP... SPIRITUALLY. In direct opposition to his (Christ's) words... to STAY... AWAKE.

Remember. Christ said:

"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; [u][b]such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:4-6

If we leave off discerning the body of Christ... and ITS IMPORTANCE IN "CURING" US... so that we no longer remember to PARTAKE of the "leaves" of the Tree of Life that he IS... we WILL become weak, spiritually. And if we don't take care... sick, spiritually. Or, even worse... fall asleep... spiritually.

We won't... can't... STAY awake, however, IN Christ... SEPARATE and APART from Christ. We simply cannot do it... because it cannot be done. Those who think they can SAY they're in Christ. in union with Christ, belong to Christ, etc., yet are not in union with him in the way and manner HE said... AND... TRULY UNDERSTANDING what that union IS... and WHOM it is... are fooling not only others (others they want to believe when they say they're anointed or in union with Christ)... but often, and most importantly, themselves.

They're not, however, fooling JAH and Christ. Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 6:46

If anyone among us here have become weak... sick... or even fallen asleep... spiritually... there IS a cure: the "leaves" of "Tree" of Life. One only need DISCERN what those "leaves" TRULY are... and what it TRULY means to partake of them.

Peace to you all and to your dear households.

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with, and a slave of Christ,

SA

Amen.


I heard this same thing from my Lord just a short while ago while we were all on the topic of eating and drinking worthily, but I was rushing through, thinking about something else, and I just never gave it another thought.

The sleeping, the weakness, even the death... was spiritual. Because of course it does not make sense that the early disciples would have physically died. We don't. But spiritually... yes.


So thank you for sharing as you heard, Shelby!

Peace and love to you and yours,
your servant and sister and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

Here`s something interesting I found in my research..

While Translating..
Franz would look for definitions that better suited the WBT$ Point of view..
Even though (As Shelby is Pointing out.) better definitions were available..
Truth and accuracy were not very high on his list..

The WBT$ Bible was Translated by the WBT$..
To Suit WBT$ Doctrines..

FROM A WBT$ POINT OF VIEW..
.....IT`S DEVILISHLY CLEVER..
........

..............................................OUTLAW

_________________

Yes, which makes them the same as every other religion out there, choosing the translation that best fits their theology. Filtering the truth through their own theology, instead of testing their theology against the Truth (who is Christ)

Of course if one listens to Christ as He teaches, one should know what word/meaning is correct. Or at the very least, if one looks at what He is written to have taught (by word and deed), then one would have a better idea of what should be chosen.



Peace to you!
your servant, and sister, and a slave of Christ,
tammy

It appears that NWT combines definitions B and C. Some translations use definition B only, others use definition C only. The NWT uses both B and C. However, WTS doesn't teach that it's a physical death. The footnote on that in the RNWT says, "Evidently referring to spiritual death."

And, in looking up this verse (it's verse 30, BTW), the last time this verse was directly referred to was in 1953, and it was focusing on the "sick" part.



And in 1952:



And in 1951, it references this verse in relation to those who are spiritually sick.

Personally, I've never understood this to mean physical death. I've always understood it to be a spiritual death. However, I've felt that "sleep" is a better translation because one CAN wake up from sleep. Can one rise from spiritual death? Not sure.

Thank you for sharing this!

Greetings, dear LQ, and peace to you! I understand what youre sharing and why (you wish to be accurate). TOTALLY get that, as I know you know I wish the same. That's why I've learned not to lean on mybown understanding.

Which is the case here. I shared what I received not what I myself know. I trust my Lord's words and so when i read uour comments I knew he would provide a response. And he has.

He said to share with that while it is true that the WTBTS actually PUBLISHED little about this matter, their actual TEACHING, at least after the 50's and until recently, was as I shared. You refer to the "RNWT." I must assume you mean the REVISED NWT... and not the REFERENCE NWT version.

And that makes sense. Because their REVISED version attempts to correct a LOT of false beliefs and teachings (yet, also perpetuating more!). Funny thing about that, though: the TRUTH... never CHANGES. Our UNDERSTANDING of what is true... is irrelevant - truth is truth. It is our UNDERSTANDING that may be false.

But Christ, who IS the Truth... ALWAYS... SPEAKS truth. Proverbs 8:4-7

And so, to corroborate what HE shared with me and I with you dear ones, he directed me to post this, from the NWT Reference Bible, which had the MOST information as to what the WTBTS purported a verse meant (i.e., footnotes stating what a verse "literally" meant) from at least 1984b (before, actually, as it takes a few years for these versions to be compiled and published)... to their recent "understanding" that it WAS as to spiritual (and your comment as to spiritual death vs. sleeping spot on):

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac60 ... h6pgsc.jpg

As you can see (if the linking worked), there is no footnote clarification. And for that reason MANY JWs believe... because the WTBTS taught... through it's agents (DOs, COs, elders, pioneers, and publishers) and for MANY years... that Paul meant such ones were PHYSICALLY weak or sick... or had died.

I hope this helps, dear, dear brother. While I realize it can be difficult to put one's faith in someone one can't see... HEARING such a One isn't all that difficult. It only takes faith. Faith that says while it might APPEAR that what such a One says is wrong, false, cannot be... it MUST be [true]... because HE said it.

True faith doesn't leave place for doubt. TRUE faith says "Although I don't see/understand/comprehend/fathom NOW... I KNOW you will not LIE to me and so I believe you." Then... it patiently waits on the One to prove himself true. Rather than being (mis)led... to try and prove him wrong.

That One is the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ( MischaJah )... and his mouth always speaks truth, luv. EVEN if WE can't "see" it, yet.

As always, the GREATEST of love and peace to you... and to your household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

However, I've felt that "sleep" is a better translation because one CAN wake up from sleep. Can one rise from spiritual death? Not sure.


Greetings to you LQ....


Wouldn't we all be considered in this state ( in spiritual death) until we came to know Jaheshua as " The Way, The Truth and THE LIFE?" And that by means of Him as the Holy Spirit is where true life is generated?

And until we came to understand the importance of remaining in Union with Him?

John 6:53

" Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have NO LIFE in yourselves."

1 John 3:9-16

"We know we have passed over from death to life because we love the brothers. He that does not love remains in death."

John 5:24

" Most truly I say to you, he that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgement but has passed over from death to life."

So, it is by means of Christ as the life and obedience to him alone through no other, and what he tells us is how one can be awakened from spiritual death and come to life.

So sadly then, how many in religion including the WTBS would you think are truly spiritually dead?

Just a couple thoughts,

Peace to you always, your sister and fellow servant of Christ, Kim

And most excellent thoughts, too, dear 'Mom. Peace to you, luv, and thank you (and JAH and Christ!) for those excellent thoughts!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Thanks for those references, mom. There is a passing over from death to life one time, right? Would a person who was originally dead spiritually, pass over to spiritual life, then die again spiritually, then pass over to life again? Perhaps multiple times? That's what I meant when I asked that question. It assumed that one had already passed over from spiritual death to life in Christ the first time.

I guess that's a question worth asking: after one comes to life in Christ, can that one spiritually die and come to life AGAIN? I don't for sure know the answer to that question, but I think not.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. - Heb 6:4-6

Dear 'Mom's excellent comments notwithstanding, dear LQ (peace to you both!), I thought that's what you meant.

The writer of the letter to the Hebrews words notwithstanding also, though, to answer your question I must respond with what my dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ( MischaJah ) has said to ME about it and that is that the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, shows mercy to whomever He wishes to show it.

Hence, mercy COULD be shown even to such a One as you mention. Which is why WE shouldn't judge. Even Adham... Judas... must stand before the throne. While Judas had not yet received holy spirit we know Adham certainly did. DIRECTLY from JAH, as a son (with no need for an adoption).

We don't know the depths of JAH's mercy. We do know that WE want to receive it. So best to not consider this matter "written in stone," IMHO. Instead, might be better to just pray for anyone we [think is/may be] in this situation... or better yet, that ultimately none are:

"God does not DESIRE... ANY to be destroyed, but ALL to attain to repentance."

"Let YOUR will TAKE PLACE... on earth..."

I hope this helps. Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel, reminded of my dear Lord's words as to those who are ashamed of him before men.... Peter's denial of him.... and my dear Lord's forgiveness of Peter .... and so holding him (the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah) in even more awe... higher esteem... and greater love... as a result...

Good morning LQ and peace to you,

Shelby shared a wonderful truth and that is WE are not to judge ANYONE as our Lord shows mercy to whom he chooses and we ALL want that kind of mercy bestowed upon us each and every day.

But as to this thought you asked about...

I am reminded and shown by our Lord that when one dies physically they are referred to as " sleeping."

When one is dead spiritually the same applies. And when someone is asleep they CAN BE awoken.

Because the spirit cannot "die" but must be...destroyed...therefore anyone that is spiritually "considered dead" can be awoken if they truly want to be by our Lord.
It is a spiritual sleep/ death that they are in.

As to how many times can this happen?

Anytime we fall asleep spiritually, it can be like a death. But we can wake up by returning to the one who is The Life and continually keep seeking Him!

Our Lord reminded me of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25. Even though the five that were discreet had enough oil or Holy Spirit, they STILL, ALL of them fell asleep (spiritually speaking) awaiting for the master to return.

And they had Holy Spirit or had been "enlightened."

Also the seven congregations in Revelation 3:1 and these ones had been enlightened...

“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
Rev 3:2
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.


As to the thoughts in Revelation to the congregations, Shelby was given to share on this on another thread in detail. That all of those that belong to Jaheshua will be in one or more of these congregations at any given time and we can possible move around within them depending on where we are spritually at the time and can use the direction here from CHRIST as a gauge for us to keep awake and strong.
If that is the case then... I see that we could fall asleep ( in a death) spritually and then awaken and it happen repeatedly. Not that anyone would want this, but it happens.

I hope this might help you, wanted to share some of this that I had heard from our Lord before I forget it LOL! Off to work, talk soon!

Peace and Love to you always, your sister and fellow servant of Christ, Kim

Thank you for that, dear 'Mom... and peace to you!

I was just reminded by our dear Lord that the WTBTS considers those DF'd as "spiritually dead." And yet, when the elders "forgive" and let them back in, they are not only "reinstated" to the congregation but supposedly also spiritually. Heck, you can molest children, even after being baptized (and so "awake") and DF'd (due to such crime, both the crime and DF'ing supposedly rendering one spiritually "asleep"). I mean, can one truly have BEEN awake and committed such an act? Not meaning an "unbeliever," as JWs consider such, but someone who's been baptized?

Yet, so long as some "brothers" believes you've repented...

Didn't Christ say he didn't speak of his own initiative, but as the Father told him to speak? And did nothing of his own initiative except what he saw the Father doing? If Christ tells US to forgive... up to 70 times 7 (or whatever one wishes to believe he said)... wouldn't HE and JAH do the SAME? Wouldn't they HAVE to, else be hypocrites?

Just some things to think about.

Again, thanks for those verses, dear 'Mom... peace to you... and peace to you, ALL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

Nothing to add, except to agree that yes, if we are asleep (spiritually), certainly we can be awakened. Certainly Christ can wake us, as we are all dead without Him (He who is the life). And as Justmom showed in that verse from Revelation, to the seven congregations, Christ tells those in that one particular congregation TO wake up.

I have found myself in various congregations, as written in Revelation, at various times also.



I never thought of that before with regard to His words and Peter doing just that, but yes, that is beautiful... and again shows the great mercy and love of our Lord, Jaheshua, who is the image of, and so shows us the truth of, His Father.


Peace to you all,
your servant, and sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

Me neither dear Tammy,

I had not thought of that about Peter as well until Shelby quoted that.

I have smiled "in awe" off and on all day in joy thinking upon just how wonderful and merciful our Lord Jaheshua and His Father Jah TRULY are! How can we not Love them? They are nothing like man and religion has portrayed them.

Thanks everyone for sharing all these wonderful truths from our Lord,
Love your sister and fellow servant of Christ, Kim