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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:33 pm 
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It's been quiet here, and I feel inadequate to open up topics. I'm just a little pinky toe, or maybe that thing in the back of the throat. (1 Cor 12). But, I'd like to see this place active again! Maybe this was discussed before, but my (admittedly quick) search didn't show it. Regardless, it'll get us talking again. 8)

Does it matter if we believe our Lord died on a cross or on a stake? If I believe it was a cross and you believe it was a stake (or vice-versa), will one of us be condemned to eternal punishment because we believe in the wrong thing?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Greetings dear, LQ, and peace to you, brother, and VERY glad to see you taking the initiative - LOLOLOL!!

My understanding is that it doesn't matter unless:

1. As to a cross, one means the kind and has their heart attached to the symbolism of the type and purpose used by "christendom" (which would constitute a "touching"); or

2. As to a stake, one is teaching others to be as accurate as possible in regards to Christ and therefore should be so themselves, in which case merely a stake is insufficient (a stake, yes, so as to be easily thrust into the ground but with a piece nailed perpendicularly near but not precisely at the top which some might construe created more of a "cross" than a "t").

I learned that the Roman also sometimes nailed another cross-piece at the bottom for the feet (resulting in a splayed "cross" formation of the body hung on it, as well as nailed bodies to long crossed pieces which they then nailed onto the stakes pole. When I was permitted to see "Golgotha" I saw all of these methods. Just depended on who did the actual construction.

For our dear Lord, it was the first (pole with cross piece about 6-8 inches from top with a smallish (like 4 x 6/7?) piece of... parchment?... moving very slightly, hands spread with nail through each, and one nail through his feet, which were crossed atop each other - his knees where slightly bent... and he was looking at me, his face VERY stressed, but his eyes seeming VERY happy (for ME!). Utterly broke my heart and does whenever I read of it, so I avoid the accounts best I can).

Peace you you and SO good to see you "active!"

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Thank you LQ, it's so good to see you here chasing us all up! Peace to you brother.

Shelby, (peace to you too sis), ooh, your comments re our dear dear Lord made me emotional. It should. Thank you too.

Giving your life, however it's done, must take such enormous courage, requires an exceptional sacrifice based on love, and even for strangers. He did Jah's will, at His own expense physically. It blows my mind how not only Jaheshua did that, but that the Most Holy Jahveh could have borne it, for US! As a parent that must've been so heartbreakingly painful. Praise Jah & His son.

YSSSoC

Loz x

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Isn't the symbolism of the cross important? It seems to be an integral part of the gospel... symbolic of WHY Christ died. I disagree with the idea of having the symbol hanging around one's neck, though.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Cross or Stake?

.......Jesus Dined on a Steak...
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......................... 8) ...OUTLAW

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:04 pm 
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Greetings,

Hello dear LQ and yes it is wonderful to hear you.

This subject has been addressed and it's been quite some time. I don't remember exactly but what stood out to me especially coming from JW background and the emphasis they teach on the " the stake" not " the cross" is this verse,

JOHN 20:25

" The disciples said, We have seen the Lord! But Thomas said to them, Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into His side, I will certainly not believe."

As our sister Shelby shared ( peace my sister) it was not an upright stake but a cross.

Try to convince Jehovah Witnesses this, LOL!

But regardless, it is what he did for us in that he emptied himself, took on a slaves form of flesh, took into himself all our sickness and death, healed, suffered, endured shame, pleaded on our behalf and forgave us knowing what we would do giving his flesh and blood for us. No one has greater love than this. Jah and Christ are truly truly wonderful.

Peace and love to you all,
Your sister fellow servant and slave of Christ,
kim


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Something to think about.
WBT$ & JW`s consider the Cross, a Pagan Symbol.

What most likely, would Pagan Romans nail Jesus to.
1)..A Pagan Roman Cross?
OR...
2)..A WBT$ approved stake.
So the WBT$ & JW`s could look good, 2,000 years later?!

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............................. ::)) ...OUTLAW

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Outlaw, yup. That was my thought even when I was "in". Not quite so succinctly, but to me the whole cross/stake thing was much ado about nothing.

"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain." (1 Tim 6:3-5)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:45 am 
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Good Morning everyone, it is so nice to hear from all of you.

What a interesting question LQ. Never thought of it before but if you are a by the book JW you would think it was a life or death belief. I know my Mom saw me wearing a beautiful garnet pendant that was a cross. It was a gift from my John which he bought for me when we were in Mexico. I loved it but not because it was a cross but because it was a gift and it was strikingly beautiful. It had no symbolism for me as to pagan beliefs. Anyway she told me to take it off and throw it away as it was a terrible pagan thing. I told her I didn't see it as pagan but just a piece of jewelry shaped like that and I wasn't going to throw it away as it was a gift. She was so upset you would think I murdered someone.

It doesn't matter about what the shape of the post was that Christ was killed on, it matters that he died for us. It stands to reason that the killers would use what was standard to the Romans of that time.

That scripture (1 Tim 3:6-5) you quoted LQ is absolutely PERFECT, I haven't seen that scripture in years and forgot about it but it hits the Nail on the head as to what a lot of people are going on about religiously and politically. They argue about little things and miss the whole point.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
Isn't the symbolism of the cross important? It seems to be an integral part of the gospel... symbolic of WHY Christ died.


Greetings and peace to you, again, dear LQ!

The "symbolism" of the "cross" would not be as to "why" our dear Lord died (to give his life as a ransom for many), but as to "how" he died.

Under the Law (Covenant):

"If someone guilty of a capital offense is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. - Deuteronomy 21:22-23

This was the case for a capital sinner (transgressor), so one committing a "high" transgression (say, murder or idolatry), and not a petty sinner (say, someone "unclean" for some reason). Christ committed NO sin... yet, he was hung as a "high" sinner pursuant to the false charge of "blasphemy" (remember, though, he taught his followers that blasphemy was forgivable except against holy spirit - the religious leaders, however, deemed his admission to being the Son of God was a "high" transgression, although there was absolutely nothing in the Law to support this).

Our dear Lord HAD to be executed this way, though, in order for his death to cover ALL sins... including "high" transgressions under the Law (note, because the wage of sin is death... there really is no ranking of sin - in order for ANY sin to be forgiven blood must be poured out. But until Shiloh, sins were handled differently under the Law. The penalty for ALL, however, could be surpassed by means of the Law's one "loophole" - love).

Had Christ undergone death as a "petty" transgressor (which would have problematic for the religious leaders as there was no death penalty for such, so how could get the people's support?), only those types of sins would have been "covered" (by his blood). As the true High Priest, however, his "sacrifice" would have to be of a level that covered ALL sins (save blasphemy against holy spirit)... for ALL people [wanting to take advantage of it] (so, not just Israel)... for ALL time (and so, not just for a year)).]

And so he had to be hung on a stake, thus deeming him appearing to be cursed by God... for OUR accursedness:

"All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.' Moreover, it is evident that by law no one is declared righteous with God, because 'the righteous one will live by reason of faith.' Now the Law is not based on faith. Rather, 'anyone who does these things will live by means of them.' Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: 'Accursed is every man hung upon {a stake}.' This was so that the blessing of Abraham would come to the nations by means of Christ [Jesus], so that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith."

That, dear one, would be the "symbolism," if there is any, of the "cross/stake." WHAT it was is nothing so important as WHY it was (a hanging on a pole/cross/stake).

I hope that helps and the greatest of love and peace to you and your dear household!

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:43 am 
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Good morning everyone and peace to you all,

Waving hello at dear Outlaw, peace to you.

Dear Zoe, peace and glad to hear from you.

Yes, dear Zoe, isn't it ironic how much and far Jehovah's witnesses go to "demonize"'a cross? Jumping through hoops to try and prove Christ died on an " upright pole" trying to say its another reason that makes them " the truth" YET they stumble completely over and disobey his invitiation to partake of him? That he gave his flesh and blood for us ALL. JOHN 6:48-59

Denying still to this day it's members the invitation to "COME! Take lifeswater which is Holy Spirit from our Lord for FREE!"

Shutting up the kingdom to them all except for a measly 8? Individuals. Such lies!!
MATTHEW 23:13,15

Love your sister fellow servant and slave of Chrsit,
kim


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:18 am 
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Waving hello at dear Outlaw, peace to you.....Justmom


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:15 am 
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Peace to you!


Love all that has been shared. I don't think I have anything to add to that, you've all got it covered.

Quote:
This was the case for a capital sinner (transgressor), so one committing a "high" transgression (say, murder or idolatry), and not a petty sinner (say, someone "unclean" for some reason). Christ committed NO sin... yet, he was hung as a "high" sinner pursuant to the false charge of "blasphemy" (remember, though, he taught his followers that blasphemy was forgivable except against holy spirit - the religious leaders, however, deemed his admission to being the Son of God was a "high" transgression, although there was absolutely nothing in the Law to support this).

Our dear Lord HAD to be executed this way, though, in order for his death to cover ALL sins... including "high" transgressions under the Law (note, because the wage of sin is death... there really is no ranking of sin - in order for ANY sin to be forgiven blood must be poured out. But until Shiloh, sins were handled differently under the Law. The penalty for ALL, however, could be surpassed by means of the Law's one "loophole" - love).


I knew that it was considered to be a curse to be hung on a tree, and that made it worse what they did to my Lord, but I had not known that He had to be executed in this way, so as to cover even the "high" transgressions.


JAH has taken everything into account in His plan (in case there was any doubt), to accomplish His will... I mean, even the hairs on our head our numbered. Praise JAH!



Thank you for the thread Leaving, and so good to hear from you all,



Peace and love to you all, and to your dear households,
your sister and servant, and a fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:36 pm 
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I knew that it was considered to be a curse to be hung on a tree, and that made it worse what they did to my Lord, but I had not known that He had to be executed in this way, so as to cover even the "high" transgressions.


Mornin', dear Tams, and peace to you, luvee! Yes, for only the high transgressions had a penalty of death and then hanging on a "wood" [pole/stake]. Meaning could include that post-mortem state. Because not all that committed such sins were so hung - some weren't. And it was usually reserved for grave enemies, those who had committed quite heinous crimes against the Israelites, particularly women and children.

What is interesting is that if they were so hung the body had to be taken down by nightfall. The practice was to indicate the person's utter accursedness... and, per what's written, they weren't to have something cursed exposed after dark because JAH was "in the land" with the Israelites and so something cursed couldn't be where He was. Thankfully, just as the false stylus of the scribes falsely accused JAH of killing Uzzah (He didn't, per se - dear Uzzah was massively irradiated and so "electrocuted" by the great amount of energy that emanated from the Ark when he abruptly reached out and touched it, which all had been warned not to do), it has also falsely accused Him of being double-minded here. I mean, if He's in the land, what difference would it make if a body was hung up during the day OR during the night? Wouldn't it be just as "cursed" during the daylight as it would be during the night?

Praise JAH, that is written is not what I received from our dear Lord about that! He said that the practice itself, while lawful (for the worst offenders, to deter others), wasn't merciful OR truly advantageous. True, they could DO it (the person is already dead so the body wouldn't feel anything)... and yes, it did instill fear... but it was quite dangerous for the people: the presence of such hung ones would draw dangerous wild animals - hyenas, African wild dogs, lions, and other dangerous predators that lurk at night - far too close to the Israelite camps or even the City of Jerusalem. And most of these, while would eat dead things... preferred live prey and so would have went for livestock, even humans, having come that close to them. So, IF they did it, they needed to ensure that the bodies were removed BEFORE darkness fell.

And praise JAH... yet another false teaching of the "scribes and Pharisees" is revealed. SO many lies! I mean, man!

Ennywho, peace to you, dear sister, and to you all... and to your dear households!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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