xjwsforChrist

CHARIKLO SAID

What a very interesting thread.

Just two brief thoughts, if I may. Firstly, the soul, so misinterpreted by the Jehovah's Witnesses, is maybe something to do with the "personal identity" mentioned above.

Secondly, I believe that quantum physics and mathematics at its most advanced are indeed very close to God. I don't think I'm clever enough, certainly not tonight at this hour, to define and explain my thinking here, but I am sure that it's so, and why wouldn't it be, given that God is the Creator of and at the very centre of the Universe and all that is?

A really beautiful thread.

SABASTIOUS SAID

James, thank you so much for that experience it was heart warming. In the world that we live in we can be driven to murderous thoughts and it's within those moments that we have a choice to see things for how they truly are or to give into hate. Not everybody chooses the path you did, not everyone listens to that voice of purity, not everyone believes it exists. Have you seen the movie X-Men: First Class? There is a deep theme in that movie about how killing doesn't solve internal conflicts. Killing is an external solution to internal problem. The question is why have we been driven to this point by others? Because they too have internal conflict. We are all essentially totally insane, just some people hide it better than others. We are learning though, and that's why we are loved because we DO learn, it just takes more time than even we are willing to give.

Chariklo, I too think that quantum physics explain what many have called "God" for so long. As we redefine how matter operates our civilization will change for the better, that's been the pattern so far. We'll eventually see that it was all a cycle and a means to great prosperity. It's not coincidence that the Higgs Boson was discovered on July 4th, Independence Day.

JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Sabastious,

First, you said:

I understand what you mean. But I must say in this instance there was no "voice" or anything from outside of me. Nothing attempting to communicate -- as communication takes two. There was no two.

The realization was that it was my very own most intimate and silent consciousness that, at its foundation, was Holy. So, there was no question as to believe or not to believe. Just like you don't need to believe that you are alive. You are alive. Also, there was no "path" to follow as there was nowhere to go from right here, where I am.

Sabastious, you went on to say:


Yes, exactly, we are insane when we identify with the mind generated false sense personal identity. But has far as "time" to improve, here you may be mistaken. What did Albert Einstein, say about time : "...us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion"

There is no time. There is only NOW. We don't need to take time to learn, evolve or do anything to get to our true Self. We just need to see it. Please don't fool yourself into mentally making it a future event. God, is our true Source right now, and it won't be any different tomorrow, or in a million years from now.

The problem is, is that we make the huge mistake of identifying with the illusory mind-generated self. The "self" that is young or old, male or female, etc, etc.. When the mind is totally quiescent and still, there is no person anymore. There is only pure consciousness.

Be still. Look deep within your most intimate consciousness. There it is. Always been there. Always will be. Let it reveal its deepest secrets. Let it show you who/what you really are.

I hope I am not coming across as too preachy. I hate preachy.

SABASTIOUS SAID

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject:
Hello James, I don't mind if you preach. If I minded I would be a hypocrite, because I preach too. As far as the "voice" I mentioned, I was not speaking about two way communication. There is God and then there is matter and we are consistent of that matter. So, there really is no "self" as you say, there is only God and Us, or God and You, or God and Now, like you say. However it's God that bestows personal identity TO us and that's what makes us individuals. We are all unique Souls that were assigned identity by God. Shelby was the first to teach me this (I wish she would come in this thread). The Bible says that pride is a human attribute. Pride is God's gift to US, but it can easily be misused and warped into something it's not (Lucifer is anthropomorphic of Pride). I feel pride when I look into my son's eyes, but I need to keep myself grounded in that that pride is something that God allows for me, it's not ONLY mine, and in True Reality it is ONLY God's, but because of his Grace he shares His majesty with me and I get to be a father, which is what I have always wanted. I want to be LIKE my Father by BEING a father.

In the end personal identity is the only thing we have that we can relatively easily wrap our heads around. God breaths into our nostrils and it makes us LIVING souls, instead of non living souls which just means we exist within the mind of God and have not been assigned identity which thrusts us into the Physical Realm.

I am really enjoying this conversation, James, you are an eloquent and very spiritual man.

-Sab

JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Dear Sabastious,

Thank you for your kind comments; but I have a cat sitting on my lap staring up into my eyes that is probably far more spiritual than I am. She says: yes, that's true.

Yes, certainly, as you said, since God is ultimately all that is, it is God who " bestows personal identity". That said, when we are first born there is no identity. No separate self among other separate selves.

You likely have noticed that looking into the eyes of young baby is like looking into a bottomless well of purity (God). The child has no idea of the concept of duality, of two. It sees only itself when it looks at us. This is why this experience is so damn beautiful. The child is teaching us who we are, there is not two, never really is there ever two. However, over time the child learns duality. She learns to believe in a separate self, a personal identity. Her brain constructs a beautifully complicated story of self. She has, in a way, eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, up and down, me and you, self and other, etc....the pure ONENESS (nonduality/wholeness) of God is now hidden, but still perfectly intact, and only waiting for conscious recognition.

Now this "personal identity", with all of its pains and turmoil's and evolution to betterment, can be a great tool to awakening to our true Being. But why not just realize that material existence is illusion, and that all we have that is real (as God is real) is our intimate consciousness, and focus there? We may save ourselves much time and heartache.

Personally I don't read much into my personal story of screwed-up self, for I know it is just an illusion. An "entity" which needs space and time to exist. Yet space and time of themselves don't exist (as we have already discussed). So where am I then?

You mentioned Shelby. Shelby is a dear, who I truly believe would give her life for anyone. She has often gotten the shitty end of the stick by many...including me at times. Her and I don't always agree. Yet, foundationally, I feel that we do agree. We just speak totally different languages. She is by far much more colorful and poetic than most anyone I know. She weaves a beautiful tapestry of words and feelings. Many have learned a great deal from her and her unending patience and love.

Whereas, I'm the guy in the back row who just farts and disgusts those around me.

That said I'm sure you, Shelby and I all agree that God must always be more and never less, always closer and never farther away from us than our beliefs or imagination may testify.

Thank you for you, Sab.

AGUEST SAID

Very... thoughtful... thoughts, dear Sab (the greatest of love and peace to you!). I cannot really speak to much of it as I was not raised a JW; I came into the organization as an adult and at a time in my life when it was actually beneficial (it saved me from the "streets" where, given MY childhood, I probably should have been and be). Because of my previous life experiences, I was able to "make the Truth my OWN," versus simply "ape" what it seemed I was expected to. And so when it came time to leave, to come from under the "authority" of the pedagogues... I was pretty ready.

For me, it was like a young adult, having had a tumultuous childhood then placed in foster care for a time, which care was, well, about as loving as one can get given that one isn't really "blood" and so often times felt like what a "stepchild" might receive. While not perfect, that care was sufficient to get me through... until I was "mature" enough to strike out on my own, in a manner of speaking. Walk by faith, not by sight. Of course, my transition, progress, and resultant life was GREATLY assisted by a WONDERFUL mentor - indeed, the best!

One thing I learned that might differ from your position and that of perhaps some others is that the search for God is NOT eternal. To the contrary, God is not far off from ANY of us... and can be found, even now! One cannot find Him, though... unless one finds... and thus is found BY... the One He appointed to search for US... His Fine Shepherd... Narrow Gate... Way... Truth... [Tree of] Life... True Vine... Root of Jesse... High Priest... King... Lamb... Faithful and True/Discreet Witness/Slave... His "Door": Christ.

I know, I know... I go on and on about this, but it's a concept hard for some to grasp. I get that, yet I don't. I get it as to those who have NO faith, who can't even conceive OF a God, let alone a Son who lives and speaks... and guides us... TO God. I have difficulty, though, with those who HEAR these truths, have either read of them [in the Bible] or by what has been written/posted by others over millenia... but still can't bring themselves to truly GRASP it.

And yet, I know why that is, too. I knew it last night when I first read this thread (well, at 2am or so, but was too foggy to post a response - LOL!). It is because of the tendency... NEED... to "see" God through our own mind, our own PHILOSOPHIES... which is born of our need to understand OURSELVES. Which we try to do by trying to understand our environments and experiences. And this makes sense... from a worldly POV - virtually everyone does it. Well, that's not accurate - everyone in the WESTERN world does it. In more remote areas and more tribal existences, time spent on such opinings and speculations, etc., is considered wasted. Yet, such people tend to live with less stress, less strife, less anxiety - mere survival is the only thing that calls for such mental energy.

What am I saying? That it's really NOT that deep, that complicated... knowing God, knowing Christ... and knowing oneself. These are ALL interrelated, actually. You mention all of us being the product of our environment. I would disagree... as I know that there are those who are what they are... in SPITE of their environment... and in spite of their experiences! Indeed, I am such a one. For some reason, somehow, I never bought into my environment or experiences as defining me. Nor have I let them. Anyone who knows me... and particular those who've known me since I was a small child... say, "You are exactly the same; you have not changed." And this is true - I can remember what and how I thought back as early as age two... and I really do still think and perceive the exact same way. Not that that has gone well with me in THIS world - LOLOLOL! But, ah, well...

In trying to "find" God... and even to understand ourselves... we always look outward... rather than INWARD... and THAT is what hinders us... what makes it SEEM like an eternity, to know/understand either. But it doesn't have to be that way. One piece of advice that Christ gave is probably the MOST helpful in getting to where we all... no, most... no, some... want to "go": home. That advice was to "become as small children."

This is confusing to some because they don't understand how one can go BACK... or why one would want to. But there is the saying that in order to know where one is going, one must understand where one has been. I would say that that isn't exactly accurate but that to know where one is going (home)... one must know where one has COME FROM (that home). For me, that is knowing the Source: God. Which I've learned that I, SA, can ONLY know... through Christ. For ME... there is NO other Way.

Dear JT (the greatest of love and peace to you, too, dear one!), mentioned the eye-exchange with his cat... and I'm not sure if he realize just how sublime... and perhaps accurate... her "comment" was! ALL living things are spirits, just housed in different vessels/cups. And ALL spirits originate from the Source. And so, we are ALL connected. That Source knew us... each and every spirit (man, beast, plant, etc.)... even before we came here and manifested in a vessel. Because we CAME from Him. We are a PART of Him... and He knows Himself! That's why my Lord is recorded to have said, "The very hairs on your head are numbered." Because those hairs... are a part of Him!

HE... is the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... of "Israel" ONLY because of a promise He made to Abraham... ONLY because Abraham showed Him the same love HE was going to show to Abraham... and all mankind. Had there been another, say, a Henry willing to do so, He might be the MOST Holy One of Henry. Or of Jonathan. Or of Leroy. But it was Abraham who came through and so received the blessing, through his son by Sarah. No other reason.

HE... is the Original Source. That Source has a Door through which any who truly WISH it... can enter... and get to hear, see, and know Him. That Door... is His Son, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of Jah of Armies, the Source. Really, dear one... there is NO other way... to hear, see... or know... God.

And yes, it really is that simple... no matter our background, experiences, environments, parents, beliefs, paradigms, what have you. There truly is no other Way. And once one is able to truly grasp this... nothing else really matters. Not our background, experiences, environments, parents, beliefs, paradigms... or anything else. It really is THAT simple.

Plants and beasts understand this. Man... well, that's another story altogether. Unfortunately, most of us "think"... too much. Sometimes, dear one, that leads to us being "too smart"... for our OWN good!

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

AGUEST SAID

Dearest JT... the greatest of love and peace to you... and I "see" you, too, dear one! No, we don't always agree but who says that we need to? We don't OWE one another agreement (in spite of what Paul and others may have wrote about that, although they themselves didn't always agree - LOLOL!). We owe one another love... and that has never been a problem with us. Nor will it ever be, I believe, because neither of us are the kind of people who offend easily... wish others illwill or malice... or expect/need agreement, etc., from others. Rather, while we openly share our perspectives... we both live... and let live.

Again, peace to you, my dear one... and thank you, truly, for YOUR always very kind words!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

JAMESTHOMAS SAID

Dear Shelby,

Yes. If we are to die tonight, know that life is only and absolutely about love.

j

LEANN SAID

love in all its completeness.