xjwsforChrist

PSACRAMENTO SAID

What about those that are cremated?

DING SAID

My understanding is very similar to Dr. Craig's in the article linked in the OP.

I have asked JWs to explain 2 Corinthians 5:8: "absent from the body... present with the Lord..." They usually tell me it's all about the 144,000. They try to get away from the discussion with no deeper discussion than that and then jump back to the WT's favorite prooftexts, Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ezekiel 18:4, which the WT takes completely out of context.

As far as the paradise earth v. heaven issue is concerned, I believe that Revelation 21 indicates that after the resurrection, heaven (the dwelling place of God, not outer space) and earth unite. If so, the distinction between heaven and earth will be abolished and the heaven / paradise earth promises in the Bible will all be fulfilled. It's not 144,000 = heaven and all other sheep = paradise earth destiny as the WT has it.

The WT view of what happens after death is quite bizarre. Their view of "resurrection" is really "re-creation." The entire person goes out of existence and becomes nothing more than memories in Jehovah's mind. Then at some point Jehovah will use those memories to re-create those He wishes to "resurrect." This hardly seems consistent with Paul's statement that he would rather be "absent from the body... present with the Lord."

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject:



It is important to realize that in the Hebrew religion there were various views on the after life.
The Pharisees believed in life after death ( Sheol and Abe's bosom) and life after life after death, the resurrection.
The Sadducee, which got their views from the likes of Ecclesiastes, believed in nothing after death, you just died.

As Christians we believe, typically, in life after death (spirit lives on with God, which is also mentioned in Ecclesiastes) and the resurrection.
Since the JW's view the spirit as nothing more than a "life force" they do not believe that anything happens to the soul or spirit other than death or a "soul sleep" or whichever term may be en vogue at the time.

The confusion, I feel, is the "mixing" of the soul and spirit because of when the Hebrew apostles tried ot teach the Hellenistic greeks and others.
For them soul was good and spirit was something "less good".
The writings ended up having a Hellenistic flavour to them because the apostles and others were trying to give them a "point of reference",we don't see it that much in Paul's writings, but more so in the apostolic fathers and beyond.

AGUEST SAID



Unfortunately, I am unable to corroborate Dr. Craig's interpretations, dear Ding (and you, too, dear P - peace to you, both!). I will go into that another time/thread, maybe.



Yep. The spirit realm and physical realm become joined again. As they were at first.


Well, now, the

the two won't be abolished. It is ACCESS between the two that will be re-established. The ability to go and out between the two. The "portal", if you will, will be returned. For now, Christ is that "portal" (door).




Okaaayyy?? As based on their misunderstanding (and thus false teaching) of the truth that the soul that is sinning... will die. It will. The spirit, however, doesn't die.



It isn't consistent, dear one. You're just not fooled by their melarkey about it.

Peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

EXTRACTOR SAID

In reality, doesn't the WT teach re-incarnation? If God creates you, then you're completely gone, then he creates you again, haven't you been re-incarnated?

I knew Shirley McClain was a dub.
_________________
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." (Jesus said this.) Matt 11:28

JAMES THOMAS SAID

Here is the second part to my post above. The post in which I tried to show that we as a phenomenal body in space and time do not exist.

Science, though they hate to admit it, pretty much proves that our physical bodies -- that which is born and will die -- are not real, but rather a convenient illusion; as time and space are convenient illusions.

So what is true? Who are we if we are not the body?

What is it that must first be foundationally in place so that all the rest of our universe exists? What is it that is by far the most intimate and closest sense of your being? What is it which comes before all other senses, elements and functions of your being?

It is CONSCIOUSNESS!

The world outside of us may not exist. But we can not argue that consciousness is an illusion, for to do so requires consciousness to exist. There is nothing else like it. It, is our foundation of being. We are consciousness, first and foremost!

Consciousness is non-material. It can not be located in space and time. You might say that it is spirit.

What is non-material can not die, because it is beyond the illusion of time and space, beginning and end.

So, don't worry about death; because you were never born, and so you will never die.

Our true being is eternal. The fallacy of a human body that we believe ourselves to be, will certainly die. However, our foundational truth -- which is of That which has no beginning and no end -- can never die

LEANN SAID

James I found your thoughts on the consciousness being describe as 'spirit' very insightful.

Your words brought a couple things to mind. One time I was driving and suddenly everything around me change. Everything I saw became as if you were on a movie set, all card board cut outs and store fronts. It was all artifical and not real, almost frozen in time.

I have also enjoyed everyone's thoughts on death and life. I want to share something very personal.

Our family moved in with my husbands grandmother about two years ago, and cared for her for seven months while dying with cancer. During her last couple of months she had what I believe were several near death experiences, some of them while I was with her.

I would say that about ten minutes before she died, my cousin and I where sitting next to her. No one else was in the house. Suddenly all around me I heard what I could only compare to windy voices. It startled me, an I thought I was maybe hearing a television, or someone had come into the house so without saying anything to my cousin I got up and searched the house, The farther I got from the room the sound faded and there was no television or people in the house. When I reentered to room it began again and this time it was stronger. I truely didnt understand what was happening and so I just observed it and it impacted me deeply, shortly after she stopped breathing it stopped. I doubted what happened. but something amazing happened a few days later. My cousin confided that he has heard the same thing, and she was afraid to mention it to me because she felt I would think she was crazy.

JAMES THOMAS SAID

LeAnn,

I am compiling a list if scientists and Doctors, who have and are doing extensive clinical research into proving that our consciousness never dies. These are people who began their careers as total skeptics of anything like this; but who via their chosen field discovered things about the deeper aspects of life, which they could not ignore.

I will post a list on the forum, hopefully within a week or so. It's a list not just of names, but rather education, and books in print.

I think you will find it most helpful in your person journey of understanding about life and God.

Hope you are well,

j

JAMES THOMAS SAID

LeAnn,

I also wanted to say that your experience is not that unusual. As you will see.

j

AGUEST SAID

Dear JT's post piqued my interest, too, dear LeAnn (peace to you, both!)... and so I went to my Lord about it (I read it about 3:30am but have had a bit of a busy day and so wasn't able to comment until just now). I wrote down notes (because I am starting to forget some things and have to sometimes wait days for them to return - aging, I'm sure!). Anyway, here's what I received:

What dear James has referred to as our consciousness is the same as what some, like me, refer to as the spirit. It is who we each ARE... the life essence we are and that exists inside our bodies... and the basis for our individual "personalities." It exists in ALL living things... including plants (which is why my Lord literally spoke to and chastised a fig tree). That consciousness... OUR consciousness... has the same origin, whether spirit being, human, beast/non-human "animal", or plant. The same origin... because it all came from the same Source.

Much like a "borg"... we are all part of the same... "life." That is why we ALL... man, beast, plant... have SOME similar DNA markers (and so why many believed we "evolved" from one original source... because we did COME from such - we just didn't EVOLVE from such, as that word is most often understood today.

All life types... are the result of a mutation from that Source, some good, some not so good. As originally formed, all were good. Life forms in this realm are a mutation because of contact/existence in the physical realm... and/or the physical vessel it "dwells" in. ALL life forms, whether of this realm or the spirit realm, have a vessel; however, not all have the same KIND of vessel. Not only are some celestial/spirit, of the spirit realm and some terrestrial/physical, of the earth/physical realm, there are differences with those subcategories. For example, the human vessel, beast vessel, plant vessel. Then there are variations within these There aren't as many variations in the spirit realm, however. There, there are only three: JAH, the Son, and "angels"/daemons. There are a couple/few variations among the angles; for example, the two angels that were "covering", the four living creatures, etc. There are also ranks among spirit beings that have nothing to do with their vessel but their responsibilities.

ALL are mutations from the original Source, however, and in their initial... the form they were created to be in... are "good." Just as with those life forms in the physical realm, certain life beings in the spirit realm have mutated, as well. Indeed, it was the mutation of one such being that was the impetus to man's mutation to what he is now. Their mutation (spirit beings), however, was not the result of their environment, but the result of choice - they CHOSE to mutate... become something different than what they were initially formed/created to be. They did this by turning away from the Source and in doing so became something "else". While not alone in doing so, our Adversary was the foremost one in doing this.

OUR mutation went from good to bad... through Adham. He, a half spirit being, CHOSE also to mutate... by turning away from the Source. He didn't stop there, though - he also CHOSE to sell all of his progeny to one HE thought would make him "good" in spite of being separated from the Source. And so... you have us... and our physical vessels... given to Adham to cover his SPIRITUAL mutation... which are a further mutation of the VESSEL and so carry sin and death in them (spirit vessels don't carry such in them).

Because of our original connection TO the Source, however... we can communicate with and be communicated with by Him. However, we have to do that through a being He chose to put between us and Him: His "Son."

The REASON this Source is communicating with us... is to try and get us to RETURN... to Him... and to the "perfect" entities we were originally designed to be. We can only do that if the mutations we exist in now, our vessels as well as our realm... is reversed, at least back to the original mutation one step from Him (we and our realm are about a ga-jillion mutative steps from Him, right now - okay, not that far, but far. Very).

There are two reasons for this "return": (1) so that we can enjoy the PERFECT life that He meant for us to have - one without sickness, pain... death; and (2) those life forms that don't return... either on their own or by mercy... will be destroyed. They MUST be... because they cannot be allowed to continue mutating even further out. Why? Simple: Light vs. Darkness. Good vs. Bad. Life... vs. Death. These will mutate SO far away... that their ONLY course, goal... PURPOSE... will be to destroy. To bring death and destruction to everyone... and everything in their path. They will spread... like a malignant cancer... destroying everything in their path. At some point, they will no longer be able to help it, no longer able to turn around. And so, just as the Source is on one end of the spectrum (love, light, and life), these would "advance" all the way to the far other end: hate, darkness... and death. Including their own... so that all that was created... and why (love)... will be destroyed and for naught... and all that will exist... again... will be darkness.

The Source... the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... will not let that happen. He will remove the cancer... by fire. As surgeons sometimes do now. He will "carterize" it. Today, they use extremely harsh chemicals to abate cancer's spread. This cancer, however, cannot BE abated; it WILL return if not utterly destroyed. Thus, it must be utterly destroyed... and the ONLY thing that can do that is... fire.

One way to look at it is to look at the Source on one end/pole... and look at these "bad" mutations as advancing (at great speed!) to the far, opposite end... and all of us somewhere in the middle. We have to choose to which "end" we want to go. No, I shouldn't say have to, at least not for all of us. SOME of us must choose... because through OUR doing so others may be shown mercy. We recognize that. And so those who do so choose do not do so for themselves but for the love of others, starting with the Source Himself.

To help those who DO so choose... and begin their way back... a Light has been given to them BY the Source. So that those who do choose, if they keep their gaze on that Light... will be able to find their way BACK... to the Source. When they do, that Source will not only repair and restore them to the "glory" they were SUPPOSED to have (not as humans or people or individuals, but as LIFE FORMS)... but constantly "generate" them so that they will never diminish again, at least not due to another's choices.

In an attempt to stumble and lead those who WOULD choose AWAY from following the Light, however, many, many (many, many, many...) false "lights" have been established in THIS realm. They claim to know the Source, know the Way TO the Source, speak for Him, to Him, understand Him, know what He wants, etc. Some claim to do this in conjunction with the Light. Yet, they look first and foremost to the writings of men to do this... rather than to the Light himself. They even claim to follow the Light, yet deny that the Light speaks literally, thus rendering him impotent, if not "dead."

But the Light is Life... and ALIVE... and a light for the LIVING (THEN, not now)... NOT the dead (then, not NOW). Because he is the only One who can lead us BACK... to the Source.

And because some part of the Source exists in ALL life... we can see Him in the physical attributes of the realm we exist in.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you, all!

Your servant and a slave of the Light, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, Son of the Source, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH... of Armies,

SA

LEANN SAID

James and Shelby thank you so much for your comments.

James I am very interested in your list and what others have discovered. My lord has taught me some beautiful things about life and death, and there is much for me to learn. I am an eager student. I am currently studying to be a nurse, it was caring for Grandma that helped me understand that my course in life is on a new road, one that I am curious to see where it leads.

Shelby my sister, thank you so much for what you posted, much of it made sense to me, and is similar to what I understand. There is much information you shared and I want to think it over and ask my lord questions before I address them. Also may send you an email with a few further thoughts.

Much love
LeAnn

JAMES THOMAS SAID

Dear Shelby,

You Said: "What dear James has referred to as our consciousness is the same as what some, like me, refer to as the spirit. It is who we each ARE... the life essence we are and that exists inside our bodies... and the basis for our individual "personalities." It exists in ALL living things... including plants (which is why my Lord literally spoke to and chastised a fig tree). That consciousness... OUR consciousness... has the same origin, whether spirit being, human, beast/non-human "animal", or plant. The same origin... because it all came from the same Source."

I agree with this 100%. The rest of your story I may or may not agree with, as I am far too simple minded to be able to delve to such depths of complexity.

All that I can see is that we are all of the Source. It, is our true wellspring and reality. And as such, the most direct way to actually experience this is via the one most cherished and intimate reality of our own being: our conscious awareness: The one thing we all share in as we all share in the same Source. They (our consciousness and the Source) are both the very same pool of water. We, as individuals, are simply waves on the one Ocean.

Interestingly, there are many scientists and doctors who have discovered this same thing. I am working on listing them -- as this may help some who would otherwise see all this as just so much metaphysical crap.

AGUEST SAID

Greetings and peace to you both, dear LeAnn and JT! JT, my apologies for my verbosity - I wish I could sum it up in a tidier nutshell (although the comment you quote really is the jist, as you state). Perhaps you can take it, say, a paragraph at a time (i.e., one per day - LOLOL!)?

I look forward to both of your comments, whether here or via email (LeAnn).

Again, peace to you!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

LEANN SAID

Shelby,

You said:

This is my understanding also. All life can 'hear' and is connected because we all come from the same source. True there is different 'types' of life, but the force that created us is also the 'force that is in plants, animals or angels. The elements have a measure of power however they affect us instead of share with us, sometimes acting as a catalyst.




The vessels the life is placed into affects the level of consciousness but not the reactions to it's source of life. Strange as it may sound animals and plants 'hear' their creator more clearly. As they do not have a 'knowing right and wrong' obstacle in their mind to feel and react to the power of their creator. I believe there is much more to the life forms we describe as angels than what little is describe in The Bible or any other ancient text. Perhaps they are the closest to us in level of consciousness (spirit) than any other type of creation our Lord made. I agree that change once man 'fell' from what he should have been.



I too have been taught about mutations. Changes that happened due to a cascade effect. Also find your thoughts on those who Chose to mutate from what they were orginally meant to be into something different very intersting.. I will email you more about this.

Much love to you.
LeAnn

AGUEST SAID



Yes, because unlike in the physical world, where mutations aren't necessarily chosen, dear one (peace to you!), in the spirit realm mutation can and are certainly chosen. Unlike here, where the laws of the physical universe affect our choices (i.e., gravity, oxygen, sunlight, H2O, biological impulses, physical limitations, hormones, brain activity, and more...) beings in that realm are "truly free" (John 8:36). They are not in a covenant whereby they need the Son to BE free... as THEY were created free. We, however, were "born" bound... by this realm... and so many things are NOT by choice for us.

Many things, however, ARE by choice for us; however, unlike in the spirit realm ALL things... beyond their creation... is a choice for a spirit being. And so, while our vessel of flesh can "lead" us to do things we don't wish to, they don't have such to deal with. Any mutation THEY are subject to, then, is a result of a choice THEY make.

Hence, if such a being turns its face away from the "Cover"... which is a mutation because ALL spirit beings were created in manner that had their faces ALWAYS toward the "Cover,"... they do so by CHOICE. In the same vein, if they "stand fast"... and keep their faces toward him... it is because they CHOOSE to do so... choose to NOT further mutate... by moving further away from the Source.

We have the same choice: we can CHOOSE to keep our faces toward the Cover... the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... so as to not mutate FURTHER (away)... or we can choose to turn our faces away. Which will result in further mutation. Not in a physical sense, but in a SPIRITUAL sense. Because WE are moving OURSELVES further away from the Original Source.

That choice is what is exploited by our Adversary... what he tries to "tempt" IN us. And it is we who, in some way, let him know that that is what's IN us... the desire to be independent from the Original Source... if such is truly there. Indeed, he tried to use what he THOUGHT was in our Lord to tempt that One... but he was wrong, wasn't he?

That's what he saw in Eve, though, who manifested it by her distraction with the fruit of the TKGB. Why was she distracted? Given ALL the other vegetation in the garden, why THAT fruit? Because it represented being "like God". If one is LIKE God... why does one NEED God? One can be one's OWN "source" of life! In which case one CAN know good (life) and bad (death)... and yet live. At least, that's what Adham/Eve thought. What neither of them understood at the time, though, but later learned (we hope) is that without the Source... there is no life. John 6:53; 14:6

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,