xjwsforChrist

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

A few days ago I had a rather heated discussion with my sister because of my Mother's refusal to admit any wrongdoing towards me while growing up (physical as well as emotional abuse).

Now supposedly my Mom has admitted to my sister that she did certain things but she has never admitted these things to me, nor offered any sort of apologies for her actions. Whenever I have attempted to discuss the past she suddenly has amnesia or wants to take a nap or changes the subject. My sister accused me of not being a good Christian because of my refusal to grant my mother pardon, despite her (my Mom's) lack of repentance. In my sister's eyes offenses should just be forgiven whether the offender is repentant or not because Jesus said if someone insults you to just turn the other cheek. This is not the same thing as an insult and as far as I know this is not what the Bible teaches for if it were true God could not condemn people who refuse to do right by others or to worship him.

Obligated to Confess: The Typical Pattern

"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him." (Luke 17:3-4)

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)

Does the guilty person really need to confess his guilt to be forgiven (that is, to be released from his deserved punishment)? Scripture certainly does lend itself to that understanding. Few, if any, are the instances in Scripture where any person is forgiven anything without first acknowledging his guilt and asking for clemency.

God, on the basis of the blood sacrifice that Jesus made, is righteous when He forgives our sins. Had Jesus not given Himself as a sacrifice, it is arguable that God would not be faithful to His own holiness or righteous if He forgave sins. Similarly, it is arguable that if He forgave our sins without our confession of guilt, He also would not be faithful to His holiness or be perfectly righteous.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

Further, not admitting true guilt is offensive to God. This is because expecting to be forgiven without admitting or acknowledging our guilty sinfulness is not only illogical, but it also makes God a liar. Why a liar? Because God has called us sinners, and when we refuse to confess our sins, we are implicitly denying that we are sinners, which is essentially calling God a liar. People who have just called God a liar through the act of not acknowledging their sins are not in a position to be granted release from punishment, nor would God necessarily be righteous to do so while we remained in a state of denial.

Did not God warn even true believers that if we refuse to confess our sins that He will not even listen to our prayers? God calls the attempted prayers of believers, who decide to be unrepentant regarding certain sins, an abomination.

If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; (Psalms 66:1
He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination. (Proverbs 28:9)
The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous. (Proverbs 15:29)
Behold, the LORD'S hand is not so short That it cannot save; Nor is His ear so dull That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear. (Isaiah 59:1-2)


I just want to hear from my Mother's own lips (and not have someone else tell me) that she is truly sorry for the physical, emotional and mental abuse she heaped upon me as a child and that she won't do it anymore.

I don't think I'm asking too much, being unreasonable nor being un Christian in my reasoning.

What say you?
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Here is the link I neglected to include for some of the information I posted.

http://www.thefaithfulword.org/forgiveness.html

Peace and Love be upon you,

Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

AGUEST SAID

I would say forgive her and let it go, dear MS (the greatest of love and peace to you!)... which I know is NOT easy to do... but would benefit YOU, not necessarily HER.

Goodness, if we all held on to every thing that others did to us... or they for what we did to them... who could stand? If we want to BE forgiven, we must FORGIVE, right? Look at how many people are suffering... mentally, emotionally, psychologically... and as a result physically... from not be able to let go and let God.

Your mother knows what she did, just as you know the things you've done. Your need to hear it from her is really just some need for self-satisfaction that you were right. But you already KNOW this, so why push a confession from her?

Yes, we have our Lord's words as to those who "repent" and ask us to forgive them. And so, yes, we CAN hold out for a confession. But what does it do to US while we're holding out? How many are dead, in therapy, on drugs/alcohol, abusers themselves... because of what happened to them that the perp never openly acknowledged? How many of these are simply seething inside with the goings over of the past? WHO DOES IT BENEFIT... while one is waiting FOR such confession?

Is your mom an idiot? If what you say is true and she hasn't/can't acknowledge it and apologize... then, yeah, she is. Are you allowing yourself to SUFFER because she's an idiot? Sounds like, yeah.

Am I saying let it all go and go get all lovey-dovey with your mom as if nothing ever happened? If you can, sure. If you can't, no. Your sister wants everything to be "right" and "perfect" and "hunky-dory". That's not necessarily ON you, though, as you weren't necessarily the one who made it all out of whack in the first place.

If it were me, I would tell my sister, "Hey, you need to go talk to mom about this stuff, not me. Tell HER to come clean... as a christian should. I won't hold anything against her, but surely you can't expect me to be all lovey-dovy... as that would be a lie and deceit... which would harm me even more. So, sorry, can't do that. Of course, I don't want anything bad to happen to her; truly, I wish her the best and, yeah, when the time comes I will help her if she needs it... because she's my mother and for that reason only I owe her honor. But UNTIL then... let's just agree to disagree and I'll stay in my corner if she'll stay in hers."

And then I would LET IT GO. Because continuing to allow things like this to TORTURE me... allows provocation... which allows "place" for the Adversary. And so my thinking would be that this is WAY more about me and MY peace of mind, heart, and spirit... than it is about her copping to something ugly things she did... to me and perhaps to others... oh, so long ago.

Keep in mind, while we can try to adhere to the "letter" of a law... there is NO law against love... and so we can always SURPASS the law... and a transgression against it... with love. So, while, yeah, our Lord said that if one repents we are to forgive them, he didn't say that that is the ONLY way, means, or time that we can do so. Just as with the Law Covenant, which was established NOT so that one could point a finger at another when they transgressed, but so that one could see what one might FORGIVE... WHEN transgressed against... the love of the NEW Covenant allows this, too. Indeed, it virtually requires it.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

I should have clarified something. I re-read my post and realized I didn't.

I have forgiven my Mom, long ago in fact. However I am unwilling to take the chance to be subject to her actions again and therefore do not wish to have a relationship with her.

My sister seems to think that if I have truly forgiven my Mom then I would be okay with having a relationship with my Mom.

I just don't see it this way. By not having a relationship with my Mother I am keeping myself out of harm's way. I have learned the hard way that granting her forgiveness seems to imply that she can do the same things with no consequences.

I understand that when Yahveh forgives, He forgets. However Yahveh is safe in heaven and it's me who would have to deal with my mother's insanity were I to make myself available and I'm unwilling to do that.

Peace,
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

AGUEST SAID

Does your sister have children, dear MS (again, peace to you!)? Or nephews/nieces? Friends with children? If so, ask her how, say, if one of these children were molested, she would advise them/their parents... to forgive such an offender (which she must, right, given her stance on this matter?)... then continue a relationship with the molester.

Not having a relationship with someone who's harmed you doesn't mean you haven't forgiven them OR haven't forgotten. You CAN forgive... forget... AND move on. You don't "forget"... when you keep bringing it UP to them... again... and again... and again.

In these times (and perhaps in times before) some people truly are toxic/dangerous to us and for our own well-being we have to keep them at arms' length. Just common sense. Sure, we wouldn't close the door of OUR tender compassion on THEM... should they have need we can fulfill... but who says we have to hang out?? For example, a scenario where you say, "Yeah, I know you killed my daughter, your wife, and so lost all you had as a result but whyn't you just come on over and live with us now? 'Cause that'll show you that we TRULY forgive you!" But would it REALLY? What, though, if you add the caveat: "Keep in mind that I'm gonna personally remind you every waking minute of your life of what you did while you're there, though..."

Which is better/worse: truly forgiving someone but moving on... or saying you forgive them, even take them in, but harbor great resentment in your heart and so bring it up every time you see them?

Just because one SAYS they've forgiven another... and perhaps even does things in an attempt to SHOW it... doesn't necessarily mean they truly HAVE. On the other hand, just because someone moves on... doesn't mean they haven't forgiven. Each one must examine his/her own heart... and be HONEST with oneself as to whether they truly have forgiven... or need to work on it more. For me, asking for the fruit of God's holy spirit (love, peace, goodness... long-suffering... even self-control)... and forgiveness where I cannot forgive... yet... is the only thing that helps ME to truly get there.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

TEC SAID

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject:
Everything that Shelby has said.


Perhaps you could tell your sister that you have forgiven your mother. But as long as your mother has done nothing to mend things with you (at the very least an assurance that she knows she abused you and that it was wrong), then you have absolutely no reason to think that she will not continue to abuse should you give her that opportunity.

It is probably easier to work on you, than to work on your mother, and that is why your sister is chosen you.

peace to you,
tammy

AGUEST SAID

Everything that dear tec said. Peace to you, both!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

JAMES THOMAS SAID

Hey MedewtySenu,

Forgive me, but I have just kind of speed-read through your thread, and may have missed some of the particulars.

That said, I am in agreement with the counsel that Shelby has given you.

Really, forgiveness is about ourselves. It's about not holding on to pain/grief/negativity that can inhibit our current love and compassion for others and ourselves. Forgiveness is like opening a window so that we can breath.

Also -- as I believe Shelby has already mentioned -- forgiveness does not mean we freely hang out with people who have, and perhaps still do have a tendency to cause us pain and angst. Some people are just toxic. It's not that they are intrinsically bad, it's just that they are going through a period of deep inner conflict and may not be open to outside help. Love them just to love. But no need to get within ten miles of them.

Quote:

WILLIAM SAID

Today my mother turns 81. She decided to shun me around 1997. I was DF'd in 1978. I spent years trying to have a decent son/mom relationship until I finally "got it" and just stopped calling. This past August I received a letter from her after having no contact with her for over a decade.

I shared about it on another forum....

The Letter





After reading your OP it occurred to me that my mother never really said she was sorry. She just wanted to know she had my forgiveness.

She does and I agree that it is more for me than it is for her.

Hugs.
_________________
When you get to a fork in the road, Take it. ~Yogi Bera

AGUEST SAID

For ALL of you who suffered under the leadership of the WTBTS... whether at the hand of a parent, some other abuser, a hypocritical elder (body) or what have... I truly am sorry and apologize for what YOU experienced. I realize that an apology from ME is not what you want/need... but I still offer it, as someone should do so. I will do it. I apologize for your pain, your wounds, your broken heart, your tattered spirit, and all that may have caused you mental and emotional anguish in addition to any physical damage you may have be subjected to.

As a servant to the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... and thus YOUR servant... I apologize and want YOU to know that I am VERY sorry that those who harmed you such allowed themselves to be used [by our Adversary] in that way... that they had such IN them so as to be used.

You are not forgotten, however, and what you went through will not go unanswered. True, because of God's vast love and mercy, no punishment may be meted out in the end, but rather even more forgiveness. But... it will not go unanswered. Everyone who has harmed you WILL give an accounting to the One who will call for it. So, I can only ask your patience for a bit of time more. I know... it seems like an eternity, but truly it isn't, but only a physical lifetime - which is truly short in the true span of time.

In the meantime, please... please: don't let these things change YOU... and who you KNOW you are! As our Lord left us in his comforting words:

"In the world you are having tribulation. Take courage - I have conquered the world!"

Again, I know you aren't looking for an apology from me... but it is all I have to give you at this time. Take it, please, if you can... and let it do for you what any other apology you might need would do: free you from your anger and/or pain, for now.

YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,

SA

AGUEST SAID

And peace to you... all!

A slave of Christ,

SA

THENOBLELODGE SAID

I hadn't seen my father for many years but when I found out he was dying I went to see him. He opened his eyes, looked at me and said sorry. I'd like to think it was because of his behaviour, the violence, lack of love, everything....I really don't know.

What I do know is that apology reduced me to a blubbering mess. I never felt like I needed to forgive anyway, all I ever wanted was acknowledgment of what he had done.

After his death I grieved more for what I never had rather than what I had lost.

MedewtySenu I truly hope you don't let your mom take any more of your life, she's taken enough. Please just let go and see her for what the borg has done to her, what it caused her to become.

She may never say sorry to you for the pain she caused you, she only seems sorry she couldn't raise you to serve her god Jehovah alias the Governing Body.

I hope you find/make peace with your situation.

Peace

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

@ Shelby
Yes my sister has children, four in fact. She has custody of one and non-custody of the other three (which is her own business why).
Suffice to say there have been instances where our Mother has tried to influence those children against Nicole (my sister) and succeeded in some areas and failed in others. Yet despite all this my sister is just willing to let it go, or at least it seems this way to me. My mother likes for people to need her and in relation to my sister has manipulated events to where my sister and her husband lost food stamps and friends because of our mother's influence. These things she has told me herself and ranted about on Facebook. Again though she still lets our mother live with her even though having evicted her three times previously because of our mom's bad behavior. I guess they have finally come to some mutual understanding but knowing my mom I doubt it.
Now for the hypocrisy. When my mom was sixteen years old her father (Gene) left her mother (Catherine) because he apparently couldn't deal with her any longer and he two years later married another woman (Janet) who has been since his wife. This happened in 1967. Despite his apologies over the years and asking for forgiveness my mom has never given it. To this day she holds it against her father that he never married Catherine (yes my mom was born out of wedlock) and she blames him for Catherine's descent into alcoholism, the abuse my mom met at her mother's hands and Catherine's accidental death by automobile a few years later. Oh and for the record my mom was never a JW nor interested in it. I can't count the time she gave me grief over being involved with them (though she proved to be correct in the end, which I acknowledged).

I want it to be understood that I love my mother dearly and do not wish any harm to her, but at the same time I feel all persons should be held accountable for their actions no matter their relationship to the one they offended.

My mother has absolutely no problem blaming her father, 1st, second and third husbands for her lot in life. I've rarely heard her admit to any mistakes and growing up I cannot recount ever hearing her apologize to anyone for the her misdeeds. Perhaps it's pride or arrogance. I don't know. I'll say again. I have forgiven her, but I simply choose (as Shelby said) to keep her at arm's length and if I were to marry or have any children in the future to keep them away from her until such time that I was sure she had changed her ways.

I adore my sister but she has had her issues and unfortunately my mom was the only one who helped her (which I feel badly about but I have my reasons). At one time my sister was into all sorts of drugs and she lost everything she had including her freedom at one time because of it. She stole from other people, sold all her belongings, TV, children's toys, clothes and even herself in order to pay for her habit. Her father (ny stepdad) Jimmy took her in for a time and there were as yet unproven allegations of theft made against her by his new wife which forced Nicole to move out. She lived on the street for a time, in a car, with friends (also addicts). I lived in another state and was unable to offer her a place to live because I had roommates and she had been convicted of breaking and entering and my roommates were unwilling to agree to have her there. I myself was unsure of her and told her why. Suffice to say my mother did take her in a few times and usually at the cost of a family heirloom or two. I had an electric/acoustic guitar that belonged to my Aunt Cathy (killed on the same road as my grandmother in the same way) which my sister got a hold of and pawned. My mom was holding it for me until I could send for it as I was unable to take it with me when I traveled.
But even though my sister stole from our mom and others, eventually she got herself help and started going to a Methadone clinic (which she still goes to some 7 years later). She has not tried to get off the Methadone and insists it helps her to cope with life.
I mention all this not to defame my sister but to give some background. It seems my mom accepts the methadone use and because our mom helped Nicole at one time and babysits for her, Nicole feels she owes her.
I've only helped Nicole once and that was sending her money to buy a car which she tore up two weeks later and gave back.

She keeps her children from visiting me (even though two live in the same county) nor am I allowed to visit them because of how I am towards our mother (whom they adore). I feel she is using the children as a weapon to get me to step into line with her thoughts on how things should be. I have only ever bent the knee to two people, Yahveh and Yaheshua and she knows this, but she still tries. I don't react well to blackmail, threats nor intimidation. When visiting my sister she has never stopped by to see me (it's a 20 minute drive from her children's house to mine) nor called to let me know she was in the area. I've always discovered she visited by reading her Facebook posts and looking at the pictures she's posted.

Now here is the interesting part. My Brother in law, Josh has an abusive mother and Nicole has never insinuated that he make peace with her. Not once. She has stated that Josh wants nothing to do with his mother and Nicole agrees with this. I personally think this is more about Nicole wanting peace at any price, since my Mom is getting on in years and I'm my sister's only sibling. She wants peace, but she wants it her way and since my sis was able to deal with our mom when she (Nicole) became pregnant and was left on her own by Mom my Stepdad (despite telling Nicole they would help raise the child)...I lived in Nevada at the time they were still in South Carolina then because she's been able to put things behind her, then I should be able to as well.

To me though there is a huge difference. First, the abuse at my mom's hands spanned 19 years and second I have never been married and had children. Before my sister had children our mom treated us as refuse and wouldn't visit either of us or even keep in touch. When Nicole had kids that all changed.

You can guess why.
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

PSACRAMENTO SAID

We forgive because we love, not because we want anything in return.
Forgiveness is what cures/feels US, not the other person.
Forgiveness is, in some ways, the human equivalent of God's grace, it is given freely and out of love and with no thought of recompense and that is why it heals all those that receive it.
We forgive because we know it to be right, the HS tells us it is right.
We forgive so that we may be forgiven but that is not WHY we forgive.
We forgive because we love God and Christ, we forgive in their Name, for Them.

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

I may have posted a little too much information but I cannot delete the post.

I am thinking our mutual issues are psychological in nature. She doesn't seem to trust men and I have difficulty trusting women. I've never married, nor have children and whenever I do become attracted to someone (and it's mutual) I will, after it gets serious, quickly back away. I'm terrified of intimacy and seem to have commitment issues. Though oddly enough my female friends far outnumber my male friends.

I went through many years of therapy for this and JW related issues and feel I'm pretty well adjusted (except for the previous mentioned issue).


I will say I have tried in the past to associate with my mom, but usually within a very short period of time the drama starts. Her life is so bad, she hates certain ethnicities, someone took her job, she feels depressed, and so forth. Then she'll want me to visit but refuses to visit herself (I lost my driver's license in an auto accident a decade ago). It just seems to me that she dislikes men, wants her independence from men but at the same time bemoans her situation and puts the blame of failed relationships solely upon the men in her life (all the men, including myself).

I want to have some sort of relationship with her but all this drama and then outright lying on her part makes it difficult or even impossible for me. What I mean by lying is she will say one thing to me, then a different thing to someone else, often changing what I said and when confronted will deny it. This leaves the other person involved with the recourse to either try to figure out the truth or just take her word for it.

I just feel so bad that it seems my mom has gotten her hooks into my sister now and is influencing her and there's nothing I can do about it except back away from both of them.

I'm sorry for all the complaining I've done. I'm just at my wits end on this issue.

Peace,
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss