xjwsforChrist

GLADIATOR SAID

MedewtySenu This is a subject very close to my heart, so I do understand the pain that such actions can cause. My parents, brother, sister and other assorted relatives have shunned me for many years. I am reliably informed that my father is now dead so his communication skills are unlikely to improve.

This whole forgiveness thing puzzles me. Forgiving or not forgiving doesn't come into it for me. People live their live and act as they do. They don’t want or need my forgiveness. By the same token I live my life and act as I want to and don’t need or want their forgiveness. We all make choices. I am happy with mine and I hope they are happy with theirs. It is their choice to shun and though this causes pain, life moves on, if we let it.

As James Thomas says, ‘Really, forgiveness is about ourselves. It's about not holding on to pain/grief/negativity that can inhibit our current love and compassion for others and ourselves. Forgiveness is like opening a window so that we can breath.’

Forgiveness is really about letting go. Acceptance of how people are is very important. Acceptance allows us a feeling of indifference to what others do, even those we love. This is a big world and there are many worthwhile people looking for friendship and approval. Life is too short to waste on people that don’t want our friendship unless we conform to their wishes, even if that person is our mother. That’s just the way it is.

PSACRAMENTO SAID

Trust is a tough thing.
When we trust we open ourselves to the possibility of pain and disappointment BUT without trust we can't really live to our highest potential as loving, social, relational beings.
I think that pros far outweigh the cons BUT that is something that each person must decide.
Just realize that without trust there is no love.

AGUEST SAID

Okay, so I posted my usual long diatribe, dear MS (the greatest of love and peace to you!) and suffice it to say, I'm not a very sympathetic person. I am VERY sorry about that - I wish I were, truly... but my mind doesn't work that way (my "bedside manner" often sucks!). I am more of a realist, a "you're not doing yourself any favors by going there" kind of person. Again, I wish I were more... soothing... as so many women (and men) are. I realize that my reasons for not being include having family members (many! My mom was one of 17!) who need that kind of support and just being SO overwhelmed at such a young age that I had to let go of all of the emotion that is required to sustain that kind of thinking. Please know that I don't mean to be harsh or unfeeling, truly, but I just tend to think more in lines with, say, the serenity prayer: change the things I can, accept the things I can't change.

I am very sorry for the life you've been subjected to and can only offer that your dear mother is most probably only operating on auto-pilot, as a result of her own childhood issues that were never dealt with/resolved (and most assuredly exacerbated by the additional removal of any "natural affection" by her WTBTS indoctrination).

In my favorite movie, "Dangerous Beauty," the mother who inculcates the way of a life of prostitution in her daughter makes a very sublime statements:

"To GIVE pleasure, you must KNOW pleasure."

This is SO true: one cannot give what one does not have, has not received, does not KNOW. Such a revelation has helped me deal with those in MY life who have behaved somewhat as your dear mother - people DO... what they KNOW. So, it's unreasonable and irrational to expect more than what another can GIVE... because they don't HAVE it TO give.

Of course, some will say, "But, wait, that's his MOTHER; isn't she SUPPOSED to... do such and so... love him in such and so way... etc.?" The answer to that is... a resounding NO. Because not all possess NATURAL affection; indeed, many have NO natural affection and so must learn it, if indeed they can. From what you post, your mother never learned it (and we certainly know the WTBTS doesn't teach it!). So, from where would she get it? For those like her, there is only One Source: Christ. The One who can teach her the love of GOD. However, her "leaders" have stopped her from going to that One... as well! So, from where... WHOM... will she learn it?

I can think of only one person at this point: you.

Not that you need to go to her and say/do anything, but by your own example, if you're willing to give her one. That choice, though, is yours. In the meantime, forgiving her is, again, for YOU... for YOUR peace of mind. Because, in all honesty, it sounds to ME like you're actually continuing what YOU learned... from HER - to hold onto the past. And that's your choice, of course, but if you can't see what it's doing to you... I'm not sure anyone else can help you do so. You have to WANT to see it, dear one.

So, I must refer back to my initial comments and agree with dear PSacto and Glad (peace to you both!)... that forgiveness is for YOU... and that at some point we all have to accept that people simply are how they are... and that it's our own expectations OF them is what can drive us crazy, ruin OUR lives.

The only other thing I am going to say on this matter is that I have to disagree with dear P (sorry, luv!) and say that I can love someone... without trusting them... if they've shown themselves to be untrustWORTHY. This could occur, say, with a child: one I would love until my dying day... but not TRUST... because, say, they stole from me more than once. I could try to renew my trust, yes, but at some point they could totally undermine. Doesn't mean I don't love them, but just that I don't trust them. And so wouldn't leave them alone in someone else's home (they could have whatever I owned, so my home would be no problem - although I would hate that they would take my stuff).

We know that God SO loved the WORLD... that He gave His Son, our Lord, FOR those IN the world. Nothing in that, though, says the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, TRUSTS those in the world. To the contrary, that Son taught us NOT to trust those in the world... but absolutely to love them.

I hope this helps, dear ones.

Again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

MEDEWTYSENU SAID

Thanks again for everyone's replies.

Just two clarifications because people keep missing it.

1) I forgave my mom years ago, I simply do not trust her motives. My sister is of the opinion that my lack of trust shows a lack of forgiveness. I don't see it that way.

2) In my third response (I think) I clarified that my mom has never been a Jehovah's Witness, she's never studied, went to meetings nor read any of the literature (to my knowledge). She and my stepdad did ask a local elder to meet with them when I first became involved with the JW's but he refused on the grounds that he thought they wanted to start an argument which only fueled their suspicions. I'm unsure where people getting the idea that my mother is/was or has ever been associated with the WTBTS, but I've never said this nor implied it. She despises the JW's.

Hope this clears up some things.

Peace,
Morgan
_________________
"Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter"--Dr. Seuss

PSACRAMENTO SAID



Ah, THAT kind of trust.
Yes I agree that we can love those we have limited trust for, those that have proven to not be trustworthy under certain circumstances.
I was speaking of the trust need to love someone ( the trust we must give so that mutual love can occur) which leaves us open to pain.
Sorry, I should have been more clear.

LEANN SAID

I am sorry Im entering this discussion so late, Im just now flu free and among the living. lol.

All you comments have been so thoughtful I am not sure I have much to add but as I read through the thread it brought back many similar struggles I faced

Morgan, My heart goes out to you. You seem so strong, a kind of strong that comes from having to form extra coverings on your heart because it has been injured many times. Without going into detail, I can identify with your pain as my abusers have never acknowleged their actions either.

I agree with Shelby, you can love ones without trusting them. Sometimes doing such is just common sense, because 'trust' is just really a state in which we do not fear the actions of another. We do not fear that they will harm us without cause. We do not fear that they will act selfishly and it will hurt the extended hand we placed out to them. Trust that if we share with others, love and care for them, that they will treat them with the same respect and love that we wish them to have. You are not wrong when you do not trust your mother, she does not return love, and you have good reason to fear her.

One thing I have learned about fear however. It exaggerates. A pin prick turns into a bloddy gash, and a punch into a broken bone. The slightest pain into something intollerable. Such as when we learn that putting our hand on the stove burner leaves huge blisters and scars.. now when we even get close and feel heat we pull away as if we have been burned. The other thing about fear is that it is indescriminate. It will let you think your going to get burned anytime we feel something a little warm. Such as when you said, being involved in a close relationship has been a challenge and illusive for you. It becomes a cage. Great protection for when being attacked, not so great when trying to travel through life. Opening the door to your cage allows you to step out, not others to come in.

I have trust issues too, so please do not feel as if Im 'preaching' dear one. I am just sharing what I am trying to figure out too.

As for 'their' standing with our Lord. If you have forgiven her and she knows this, than you have removed yourself as an obstacle to her approaching our lord to make things right. Your forgiveness does not undue her wrong, but it may open a door to enter into it. Forgiving when it is unearned it truely the greatest gift we can give another person. Some people do not appreciate the gift, but at least you gave it. It is that beauty in your heart that warms our lord to you, and soften it toward your mother. Your sister feels you have wronged your mother, but truely you have given her something no one can give except you.

Although I know you do not want to place yourself in a position of subjecting yourself to her abuse again, I hear in your words your struggle to understand the obligation you also feel. I do hope you reach a peace in your heart about what you should do. Perhaps if you felt there would be some good to come out of enduring her barbs than it might feel worth exploring. That is not an answer I would ever be able to give, but I do feel the answer can be given to you, and also the strength to follow if in fact it is a course that should be traveled. Sometimes we do not understand the end until we are there, and what may not make any sense to a logical mind now... makes sense to our heart later.

Much love and prayers
LeAnn

AGUEST SAID

Excellent responses, both, dear PSacto and LeAnn (the greatest of love and peace to you, both!).

Dear MS... peace to YOU... and my apologies for misunderstanding that your mom was a JW (I can only attribute that to my ire at the WTBTS over the past few days, such that I am inadvertently attributing any similar "blindness" to them - LOL! Sorry about that!). My assertions as to your mother not being able to give YOU what SHE doesn't have/know stands, though. And, again, the only one who might be able to teach her, save our Lord, is you. By YOUR conduct. If you choose to be such for her. If not, no worries - you have no obligation other than to love and honor her.

Again, peace to you, all!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA