xjwsforChrist

CRIMINY SAID

I happened to be reading this part of Acts yesterday, Ananias and Sappira getting zapped for lying about keeping a portion of their profits. It occurred to me, that is, like, oh my gawd, soooo old testament!

What's up with that?

Is there any other place in the new testament where a person was immediately executed by God for their error? Judas doesn't count, he hung himself. I thought after Jesus died a kinder, gentler God was in place for people to follow and we didn't have to be under the iron fist of Jehovah anymore.

What's next? Villages full of dead men, women, children and animals because someone reached out and touched something he wasn't supposed to? This is how God incites people to worship him out of love and not fear?

Whut-EVERRR!
_________________
I could'a been a bug.

PSACRAMENTO SAID


This was a case of Blasphemy against the HS.
They lied directly under the grace of the HS and paid the price.
Now, nowhere does it say that God killed them or that the HS did.
Fate of Ananias and Sapphira

5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and (A)kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he (B)laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has (C)Satan filled your heart to lie (D)to the Holy Spirit and to (E)keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but (F)to God.” 5 And as he heard these words, Ananias (G)fell down and breathed his last; and (H)great fear came over all who heard of it. 6 The young men got up and (I)covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter responded to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land (J)for such and such a price?” And she said, “Yes, that was the price.” 9 Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to (K)put (L)the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.” 10 And immediately she (M)fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And (N)great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

AS Peter states, They lied to the HS.
Basically, no one asked them to sell their property, they did that on their own and "volunteered" to donate the proceeds but in greed, held some back.
Now, you don't see it stated that God struck them down, but we see it stated that, when confronted by what they did, they died.
Death by guilt? perhaps.
Death by shock at being found out and understanding the sheer magnitude of what they did? perhaps.
We don't know, we just know that, when confronted with their crime, they died.
Would God kill because someone withheld money? doesn't seem too much in character with God BUT this was a case of direct affront and blasphemy against the HS under conditions when the HS was VERY active in the new congregation and these were people that had been converted directly by the HS ( perhaps part of the people at Pentecost even).

The significance of this can't be understated.

AGUEST SAID

Ananias (and yes, the same one to whom Saul of Tarsus was sent!) and his wife committed blasphemy "against" holy spirit, dear Crim (peace to you!). As dear P stated (peace to you, dear one!), there is nothing that says the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, struck them down. To the contrary, we can believe He did NOT... because His Son and image didn't strike down those who so blasphemed against that same spirit when he spoke of them. So, as dear P also stated, it was probably the realization of what they did that caused their own flesh to "quit."

The "consequence" of such blasphemy is "no forgiveness of sin", not punishment by God. Meaning, when they are resurrected it will be to judgment (verse life). Because they will be resurrected: there is to be a resurrection of the righteous AND the unrighteous - the righteous to life; the unrighteous to judgment. The latter to judgment because they'll have no "covering" (i.e., the blood of Christ, which blots out their sins)... because they showed themselves "false" to the One who provides that blood, Christ, the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).

My understanding is that, while these two were the only ones recorded, others have had a similar fate [of the flesh]. There is the account of Simon, who tried to buy some holy spirit... and Peter's words to him:

"Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, 'This man is rightly called the Great Power of God.' They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his sorcery. But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of [Jesus] Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

"When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive holy spirit, because holy spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord [Jesus]. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received holy spirit.

"When Simon saw that the spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, 'Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive holy spirit.'

"Peter answered: 'May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God[/u]. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.'

"Then Simon answered, 'Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.'"

Acts 8:9-24

The problem is that these all FORGOT that there is nothing hidden from the Most Holy One of Israel, so to attempt to "fool" him is vanity... and to [want to] use the gifts of holy spirit for personal/monetary gain... by one who claims to belong to Christ... is [an attempt] to MISUSE it, which is not allowed by those who DO belong to Christ (many who don't use other "powers", NOT from God/Christ, to engage in things like psychic reading, channeling, acting as spirit mediums, etc. These are "thieves", however, who "break in" by some other means and "steal" what does not belong to them... or the one who granted it to them).

Receiving/having holy spirit... and using the gifts it allows... is a VERY serious thing, dear one. By means of this spirit one is allowing oneself to be used BY God... THROUGH Christ... to do the WORKS of God: healing, prophesying, granting another such spirit, hearing spirits, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, wisdom and knowledge (re things beyond the flesh and physical realm), and more. It has a PURPOSE... and that is to build up the "temple" of God, the Body of Christ.

Using it for any other purpose is wrong... and WANTING it for any other purpose (primarily, personal gain/recognition/self-aggrandizement and/or importance) can be construed as blasphemy.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

WATERSPROUT SAID



People who practise these things, (and unfortunetly in my line of work I come across and know quite a few) have no idea what they are messing with. I had one medium tell me that when she stands before God she will take her punishment as she feels she has been offering people comfort. No matter what you say these people cannot see what they are doing is wrong and it grieves me terribly.

I have been to holistic fairs and you see the tarot card readers and mediums all at work and i'm the only person they leave alone and don't try to convince me to sit when I walk past lol! I think I give off my views without speaking LOL!

Whew off topic there

But as regards Ananias and Sapphira (I love that name and wanted to call Babysprout it, but hubby said NO! *Sad face*) they died because there 'flesh' perished due to the fact that they had blasphemed. The Most Holy had NOTHING to do with their death, contary to what the JW's say.

Peace!

TEC SAID

Just adding my support to what Paul, Shelby, WS stated above. At most, they died... due to whatever gave out in them, from having blasphemed the HS. God did not kill them. That is not what He does. Look to Christ to see what He did, to understand what God does.

Peace,
tammy

STRYMECKIRULES SAID

did they blaspheme or did they put up a false pretense?

i remember that they lied and when busted for the lie, ananias died first, and then the other died when sapphira went to look for her husband and ran into peter instead.

"You have played false, not to men, but to God." - Peter.

i think this matter was similar to achon.

just don't want to mix up words.
_________________
i move at a much higher rpm than most people.

AGUEST SAID

Hola, dear Strym (peace to you and WELCOME if I haven't said that before). Doing anything "false" as to holy spirit IS blasphemy against that spirit, dear one. Lying on it, to it, about it, as to it... saying it caused/did something it didn't, didn't cause/do something it did... all "false" as to that spirit. And thus, blasphemy against that spirit.

So putting up a false pretense can be construed as blasphemy... which is why those who DO claim that spirit... and to speak/do works by it... or that it did or did not do/cause something... or didn't when it did... MUST take GREAT care! It's one of the reasons I not only try to state things exactly as I hear them... but often tremble (yes, I do!), when sharing it.

It is a great responsibility... which I why I was able to accept when our Lord told me that there are those in the WTBTS leadership who are actually atheists (which is why they CAN prophesy falsely and mislead the sheep as they do, more than just false christs and imposters they are).

Not that I have anything against atheists. Well, not those who profess such. But it's like having a killer lead the pack of searchers for the body.

Peace!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

CRIMINY SAID

Well, I've been taking this all in here and over yonder at JWN. Thanks for the feeback, as always Aguest, PaulSacramento, Tec, Watersprout. I have learned that there are more examples of immediate judgements of death in the new testament scriptures. Interesting.

Acts 5:9, NIV - Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

The apostle Peter foretold that Sapphira would die right then and there. And she did. To state that she and her husband died of shock or by some other means than divine judgement, in the same room, on the same day, in front of the same men, immediately after being called out for the same sin, is an extreme leap of imagination, IMO.

If it looks like an execution and walks like an execution and 'quacks' like an execution, I see no need to jump through hoops to make it seem like something else.

Regardless of the correct answer, I was kicking myself yesterday for the disrespect with which I posed the question. I have been so agitated lately about every little thing. With the carpet having been pulled out from under me in so many ways since leaving the org., I require one thing to not trip me up. Regardless of how arrogant it may sound, I require God to make sense. When, after much effort to cling to Him, I find things that just don't add up, my brain has a charlie horse and I tend to throw a tantrum. I have enjoyed the process of relearning things, no doubt. But I thought the dissonance of the past was supposed to stay in the past.

Regardless, disrespect is lacking in respect.

Thanks for all the feedback.
_________________
I could'a been a bug.

TEC SAID

Criminy, truth be told, I threw a few tantrums myself after I left and tried to find the truth and answers myself. To make it all 'make sense'. I was frustrated, tired, panicked, and uncertain. I hate being uncertain

Only when I put faith in Christ did and do things make sense. So much so that I am filled with peace and faith in God, through His Son. This does not mean that I understand all things. Because there are things out there that I don't get... such as this story for you. But I find it is okay not to have all the answers. Because I know the answers are there, in Christ, and that they are not in conflict with Him, or with love, mercy, forgiveness, etc.

And by looking to Him, listening to Him, I have been able to understand other things I would not even have conceived of otherwise.

We are wrong about so much stuff. I'm still learning, and I'll continue to learn for the rest of my life. I just have learned enough to know that God is as Christ showed him to be, and so if actions written or taught in the bible or religion do not mesh with Christ and the image He showed us of His Father... then we have misunderstood something; probably lots of things.

It takes time and we should never be afraid to ask questions or voice what we don't understand. May you find peace and understanding in Christ, and the strength and faith to endure... if you want such things.

Peace to you,
tammy

AGUEST SAID

Greetings, dear Crim... and peace to you!

I can't speak for everyone but please know that I didn't perceive any disrespect on your part at all but just a sincere attempt to make sense of something that seemed to not make sense. In that light:



I can see your point, dear one; however, if one were to take the account as written to be an execution, then one would actually have to conclude that it was Peter who "executed" Ananias/Sapphira... and not God. Which could have been the case, if it was Peter who "wished" their death upon them:

"[Jesus], therefore, said to them again: 'May ​YOU​ have peace. Just as the Father has sent me forth, I also am sending ​YOU.' And after he said this he blew upon them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit. If ​YOU​ forgive the sins of any persons, they stand forgiven to them; if ​YOU​ retain those of any persons, they stand retained.” John 20:21-23

If you reread the words attributed to Peter, this is MORE like what occurred than God Himself doing anything. Christ never took action against anyone (save Legion, and then only to confine them), and since he did what he "observed the Father doing," there's no reason to believe that JAH Himself did anything to Ananias and/or Sapphira. And, again, the warning was that blasphemy had no forgiveness, not that God would kill such a person.

Peter, on the other hand, was impetuous and quick to react. For example, when he cut off the soldier's ear in haste. My Lord neither ordered such an act nor condoned it, but returned that ear to its place.

If one wants to see God's "hand" in this matter, then, one should look at Christ and HIS actions... and not Peter and his (which was often hasty and/or called into question).

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
_________________
Paz a todos!

Su sirviente, compañera de estudios, y un esclava de Cristo,

SA

JUSTMOM SAID

Criminy wrote:



.

.



Hello Criminy and Tec

Dearest C I wanted to add my .02cents

I too question daily as to what I hear whether it is clear or what voices I'm listening to. Trying to discern "inspired utterances" as the adversary attacks our greatest weaknesses. Which I know is my "lack of faith"

But I had just mentioned the other day to aguest that when I left EVERYTHING in the WTBS It was like the rug was pulled out from underneath me also. I put my EVERYTHING into it, sacrificed my education, gave up family, jobs, to pioneer and be the good submissive wife I was supposed to be. The only thing I am so greatful for is that I didn't listen to the "dramas" "talks" on not bearing children SOOOOO close to the end of this wicked system of things. Praise Jah that I had 3 beautiful sons to help raise and love!!!

I have to agree with tec on this one.....

When I was leaving the org. and holy spirit showed me sooo much in just two weeks that it was THEN I knew who I was and had to leave and our lord said you will be disfellowshipped for apostacy. But show love, give a witness all the way to the end!

I begged, cried, sobbed and asked our Father "PLEEEESE" don't leave me! Don't let me be misled EVER again! I can't survive it....

"He told me he never do that. He would be with me until the end, he will NEVER lie to me. And he comforted me by taking me under his wings of protection. Just reminded me to ALWAYS listen to his voice now and follw Him wherever he goes."

When now I question or don't understand something, I realize it is always either ME not listening or it is not something I can readily handle (where my faith is at the time) or it is not necessary at this time.

When something doesn't sound like what Jah would do... My Lord says "Look at me! What and how did I handle everything you know me to be?" Then I know I have to let what people say or what is written go!

So I hope I may be of encourament to you as you have been to me.
justathought
with love justmom

GRAMMAVELTA SAID

Dearest Crim,

It has been almost 30 years since we left the Watchtower. I have been pondering the workings of God and yes, questioning why He would destroy whole nations or cities because of their wickedness and include children in this.
The Bible says 'God is love' so there must be a reason and a plan that God has. Taking these wicked people away is good for those who are righteous, yes, but what about those who are killed? Do you think that God does not have a plan for those people who do not know Him or His righteousness? The Bible says: "God loved the world so much"; does that mean only part of the world or all of it? I believe that God loves each and every person that has ever lived.

The Bible says at 1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV
" For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Could this mean that the world that was destroyed by water, the millions who lived at that time are somewhere being taught how to do what is right, being rehabilitated?

Paul says at 2 Corinthians 12:2
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows."

Could there be "heavens" where there are people being taught the laws of God and how to live lives that are compatible with the way God made man to be. Could one of these "heavens" be the "paradise" that Jesus told the evildoer on the cross beside Him that "he would be with him in paradise"?

There are so many things we do not know. I have heard the testimony of many who died and were brought back. Even some who went to "hell" and who called on Jesus at the very brink and were brought back. Many of these never knew Jesus, but saw their family and loved ones there. Were they hallucinating? Maybe. But the stories are so similar it leads me to believe that everyone who leaves this life on earth, goes somewhere else. I have no other explanation for this. I have a friend whose mother and sister died at different times. Just before they died they both told her that her father was there. Some who are believers say that 'Jesus has come for them'.

I just trust God. Just as Jesus commended His spirit to God, I believe that when we die here, our spirit returns to God. We live on someplace else. Why would a loving God create a world of humans just to destroy them? He knew Adam and Eve would sin; He knows 'the end from the beginning'. Yes, He made a provision for that long before they sinned.

I believe God's plan was to find the few people who would be born that loved Him and would do His will and use them for a special purpose. The faithful prophets in Israel come to mind. There is a verse in the Bible that says: Psalm 45: 6,7,17: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows. In place of your fathers will be your sons;
You shall make them princes in all the earth.
I will cause Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the peoples will give You thanks forever and ever."

In Hebrews 1:8 This scripture is attributed to His Son Yeshua (Jesus):
" But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Is it God's plan to use the prophets of old as "princes on earth"? I do not know, but it sounds like it.

The Apostles of Yeshua are said to be the "foundation stones" of New Jerusalem.”

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb'
Yeshua said that His followers would be "with Him in His Kingdom".

John 14:3
If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

John 14:4
And you know the way where I am going.”

John 16:5
“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘ Where are You going?’


John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."

That leaves all the other billions of persons alive on earth now or who have lived. What is God's plan for those people? Many of them never even heard of Yeshua. Will God condemn them all? Will He send those ignorant or even the willfully wicked to burn in hell for eternity? In fact, why would he condemn people to hell forever? What would be the purpose in that? Vengeance? It doesn't make sense that a loving and just God would do that. Maybe hell is for a time so that people who are wicked will come to an end of themselves and learn. The word that is translated to English from the Greek for eternity or forever is "aionos" which means an indefinite time. Could be a second, could be thousands of years, but it does have a beginning and an end..

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/saranac ... HRV60OUQUU
Apr 11, 2010
The Word "Aion"

The word "aion" means age or that which pertains to the ages. Ages have beginnings and endings. Their duration’s are for indefinite periods of time. There is no time element to eternity and therefore the word is eternal is totally inappropriate translation. God made the aions: "by whom also He made the worlds [aions]" (Heb.1:2). God is called the God of the aions or the "ever-lasting [aionial] God" (Rom.16:26). There was a time before the aions: "according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world [aionios] began" (2Tim.1:9). We live in the present aion: "Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world [aion]" (Matt.13:39). There is an age after this aion: "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [aion], neither in the world [aion] to come.(Matt.13:32).

There are aions to look forward to: "that in the ages [aions] to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace" (Eph.2:7). Jesus reigns to the aion of the aion: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever [to the aion of the aion]" (Heb.1:. At the end of this age: "then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father…then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all" (ICor.15:24,2.

During this time of the aions, Christians have aionial life (Jn.3:16) aionial salvation (Heb.5:9) and an aionial inheritance (Heb.9:15). Presently, Christians have been "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:14-15). There will come a day when Christians no longer have just the earnest, but will receive the full inheritance of true eternal life which is when God becomes "all in all" (1Cor.15:2. In the meantime, there will continue aionial judgment (Heb.6:2) aionial condemnation (Mk.3:29), aionial fire (Matt.25:41) and aionial punishment (Matt.24:26).

There is so much we do not know. I believe God will reveal it all in His time. Until then we just have to trust Him to work in His character which is love, mercy, grace. We can trust Him to do what is right.

Love you all,
Gramma Velta
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God makes everything work together for good for those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28
Website: www.imdoingeverything.com/maes

GLADIATOR SAID



This is off topic but I just wanted to say welcome to the forum.
You welcomed me but I never got around to returning the greeting - Caesar keeps me busy.
Good to have you here.

JAMES THOMAS SAID

Crim,

I suggest to not read the Bible. It's just words on a page open to crazy interpretation by the whims and follies of the mind. And probably much of it got there via the very same route.

Rather, take the time to meditate on the silent warm life and consciousness within you. Here, you will learn more about the Christ, than in any book....no matter how damn "holy" it is.

A time comes to stop reading the menu, and eat the food.

JAMES THOMAS SAID

I'll probably catch hell for that post.