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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:11 pm 
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There is one thing we need to remember and that is many have done horrific things in the name of God CONTRARY to Gospel, bible and revelation


I agree, contrary to the good news (gospel), and perhaps the revelation (peace to you, dear brother!), but I cannot agree as to the "bible."

Quote:
BUT in Islam, they are told in their holy writings that is is correct to FORCEFULLY convert and it is OK to kill the infidel is he/she does not convert.


Those who put their faith in the Bible are also told by IT (at least, from an OT perspective) to kill infidels, as well. Please note, however, an "infidel" is not one who is converted. An "infidel" is one who (supposedly) KNOWS God... but turns away. Engages in "infidelity." As in the cheater in a marriage. For example, Osama Bin Laden considered Sadam Hussein an infidel. Both were Muslims. Muslims consider Jews infidels. Because both (claim to) worship the God of Abraham (they believe it was Isaac's offspring, the children of Jacob/Israel, and particularly those of Judah/Benjamin, the "Yehudi" or "Jews", who've done so. You will note, they seem to have no problem with "Samaritans").

What is INTERESTING is that the term "infidel" is a "CHRISTIAN" term, NOT a Muslim term, albeit adopted by Islam, and applied FIRST by "CHRISTIANS"... to those who don't adhere to THEIR beliefs:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... definition
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infidelity

It is an English word derived from the French word "infidele", which comes from the Latin (and thus, "christian") word, "infidelis" (from "fidelis/faithful" and "in" meaning "not"... which is from "fides", the Latin word for "faith"):

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... +etymology

The MUSLIM word for an unbeliever is qafir (from which comes the (very) derogatory term, kaffir, often used synonymously with the "N" word in South Africa), which is a term for "christians" by both Muslims... AND Jews:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=infidel
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... definition
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

The Arabic world EXCHANGED the term "qafir", due to its derogatory use as to people of dark COLOR (which includes some of them)... for the "CHRISTIAN" similar term... "infidel."

Words are important, dear one. Very. As is their origin and history.

Quote:
There is a big difference there.


In truth, not really. There really is not much difference between Muslims today... and "christians" of the past (AND today, in some instances). BOTH... CLAIM to belong to and follow "God"... the God of Abraham... but in masse, NEITHER conduct themselves as Abraham did and would today. If they did, BOTH would conduct themselves in the manner of the One whose FAITH Abraham himself imitated:

"By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death."

Just as, through faith, Abraham offered his SON, Isaac, because he KNEW JAH would restore Isaac BACK to him... FROM DEATH... Christ, in imitating his Father... gave HIS OWN life: because HE knew that JAH would restore HIS life back to HIM... FROM DEATH.

WHY did Abraham have such faith? For the same reason that Christ did:

"They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

These "christians" and Muslims, however, who engage in the awful conduct they do, while claiming to belong to/follow/be obedient/submissive to God/have faith/believe in/call upon "Jesus"... are concerned with the things HERE. They have their minds "upon the things upon the earth." Colossians 3:2

They are concerned with the here and now: land, boundaries, countries, physical resources... their PHYSICAL lives. And so, they are physical people, which is a problem:

"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

The REASON there are so many wars among these people, both "christian" AND Muslim... and so death... is because their minds are governed by the FLESH. Instead of by the SPIRIT. Were it governed by the SPIRIT, it could submit to GOD's law. And what is God's law? Is it "an eye for an eye"? Is it "kill your enemy"? Is it "return evil for evil... revile those who revile you... seek vengeance"? Or is it:

"You must love God with you WHOLE heart, soul, mind, and strength..."
AND... "You MUST love your neighbor AS yourself"?

If one is a CHRISTIAN, then it is ALSO "You must LOVE your enemy... and PRAY for them... and PROVE yourselves sons of your Father..." and NOT "If your enemy does you harm, you must retaliate." Nor is it, "You must go to war with your enemy to protect yourself/your loved one from... communism... drugs... Islam..."

Do you SEE, dear P?

So, there is no "christian" (meaning, one who calls himself/herself such because they "believe in Jesus" or belong to a certain religion (of "christianity")... who can "judge" a Muslim. BOTH are in the same boat. Neither are following, adhering to, or listening to the God of ABRAHAM. ABRAHAM readily gave up his wife to another man TO AVOID WAR. Gave up vast amounts of land to his nephew TO AVOID CONFLICT. And offered up his own son to the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, to demonstrate his FAITH in that One, that that One would bring his son BACK from death. He wasn't worried that his son might/was going to die - HE was worried that HE might now show his FAITH.

So, again, I hope you can "see" that there truly is no difference between these two groups... except perhaps the time period in which they commit their acts. For us, perhaps it seems a long time ago since "christians" did their "dirt," and so Muslims should just "get over it." I would offer, though, that the time that has passed is NOTHING in the eyes of God. It was merely a moment.

That folks KNOW the history of their forerunners, however, yet now CLING to them... as if their the "dirt" has somehow been washed away, somehow covered over... YET... NONE of these have ACTUALLY gone to Christ... AND RECEIVED HOLY SPIRIT, the "water" of Life... so as to BE washed clean... is what will be their downfall. They will still be "marked" by their "dirt"... and by the "wild beast." They will not be able to hide. They will not be able to say, "Lord, Lord, did we not... do such and so 'in your name'?!" It just won't fly.

What WILL fly is for them to HEAR the call... of the Spirit and his Bride when they say TO such one:

"Come! Take LIFE's (Christ's) water... which water is the the blood, breath, and seed, of God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, which is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and that HOLY SPIRIT, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

That "water"... God's holy spirit... His BLOOD... which blood is granted through the blood of CHRIST... is the ONLY thing that "washes" away sin and error. That... and death. Death, however, does not automatically grant LIFE. LIFE... AFTER death... is a gift granted by God... through Christ. There is no other Way, luv. No other.

I hope this helps. I hope it's not too much information for you, but it is pertinent... and true... and may perhaps help you put your current... ummmmm... paradigms as to "christians" and Muslims... in the PROPER perspective.

As always, peace to you and to your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:47 pm 
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And there's the rub, dear P: "Jesus." Who is "Jesus"? Lots of folks calling on "him." Where, though, is he? Why can't they hear HIM? Surely, he can speak... yes? Why doesn't he? And not through the pages of a book - the Son of God doesn't need a book to speak for him. HE speaks.

What is "Jesus" saying to folks [these days]? From the looks of it, "HE"'s been "telling" folks to do a whole lot of "bad" stuff... for a very long time. And a whole lotta folks been "listening" to "him"... and doing those things.

You still believe that "he" is the Son of God... His Word?

Given the track record of what's been done "in" that name... how can you?

Sorry, but I can't call on... or put MY faith... in "Jesus." HIS track record does NOT comport with the record of LOVE of Christ. Do the math: "2" plus, what, negative gazilion... does not equal "4", luv. Do... the... math.

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ (whose name is "Jah'eShua"... or "Jo'shua" in English... because he is the chosen (christ/anointed) of JAH - "Mischa... JAH"),

Shel


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:49 pm 
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What a wonderful discussions here you two, peace to you both!

" Professed" Christians today...their actions in the name of " Jesus" and "religion"...is something that we should be ashamed of.

How can any of them ( professed Christians) look at the straw in their fellow mans/ brothers eye regardless of their belief when the rafter remains in their own?

Whether it be past history or now, actions prove they cannot truly belong to Jaheshua therefore cannot be part of His body! Can't be!

Can't even fathom seeing our Lord act this way. I'm not too good at math but it does not add up in any way. :D

Peace and love to you both, your sister and fellow servant of Jaheshua Mischajah, Kim

P.s. And I will second that invitation sis, " Anyone thirsting and wishing, Come to Him, and take life's water which is Holy Sprit for FREE!"


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:47 am 
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AGuest wrote:
Quote:
There is one thing we need to remember and that is many have done horrific things in the name of God CONTRARY to Gospel, bible and revelation


I agree, contrary to the good news (gospel), and perhaps the revelation (peace to you, dear brother!), but I cannot agree as to the "bible."

Quote:
BUT in Islam, they are told in their holy writings that is is correct to FORCEFULLY convert and it is OK to kill the infidel is he/she does not convert.


Those who put their faith in the Bible are also told by IT (at least, from an OT perspective) to kill infidels, as well. Please note, however, an "infidel" is not one who is converted. An "infidel" is one who (supposedly) KNOWS God... but turns away. Engages in "infidelity." As in the cheater in a marriage. For example, Osama Bin Laden considered Sadam Hussein an infidel. Both were Muslims. Muslims consider Jews infidels. Because both (claim to) worship the God of Abraham (they believe it was Isaac's offspring, the children of Jacob/Israel, and particularly those of Judah/Benjamin, the "Yehudi" or "Jews", who've done so. You will note, they seem to have no problem with "Samaritans").

What is INTERESTING is that the term "infidel" is a "CHRISTIAN" term, NOT a Muslim term, albeit adopted by Islam, and applied FIRST by "CHRISTIANS"... to those who don't adhere to THEIR beliefs:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... definition
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infidelity

It is an English word derived from the French word "infidele", which comes from the Latin (and thus, "christian") word, "infidelis" (from "fidelis/faithful" and "in" meaning "not"... which is from "fides", the Latin word for "faith"):

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... +etymology

The MUSLIM word for an unbeliever is qafir (from which comes the (very) derogatory term, kaffir, often used synonymously with the "N" word in South Africa), which is a term for "christians" by both Muslims... AND Jews:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=infidel
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... definition
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)
https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

The Arabic world EXCHANGED the term "qafir", due to its derogatory use as to people of dark COLOR (which includes some of them)... for the "CHRISTIAN" similar term... "infidel."

Words are important, dear one. Very. As is their origin and history.

Quote:
There is a big difference there.


In truth, not really. There really is not much difference between Muslims today... and "christians" of the past (AND today, in some instances). BOTH... CLAIM to belong to and follow "God"... the God of Abraham... but in masse, NEITHER conduct themselves as Abraham did and would today. If they did, BOTH would conduct themselves in the manner of the One whose FAITH Abraham himself imitated:

"By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death."

Just as, through faith, Abraham offered his SON, Isaac, because he KNEW JAH would restore Isaac BACK to him... FROM DEATH... Christ, in imitating his Father... gave HIS OWN life: because HE knew that JAH would restore HIS life back to HIM... FROM DEATH.

WHY did Abraham have such faith? For the same reason that Christ did:

"They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

These "christians" and Muslims, however, who engage in the awful conduct they do, while claiming to belong to/follow/be obedient/submissive to God/have faith/believe in/call upon "Jesus"... are concerned with the things HERE. They have their minds "upon the things upon the earth." Colossians 3:2

They are concerned with the here and now: land, boundaries, countries, physical resources... their PHYSICAL lives. And so, they are physical people, which is a problem:

"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

The REASON there are so many wars among these people, both "christian" AND Muslim... and so death... is because their minds are governed by the FLESH. Instead of by the SPIRIT. Were it governed by the SPIRIT, it could submit to GOD's law. And what is God's law? Is it "an eye for an eye"? Is it "kill your enemy"? Is it "return evil for evil... revile those who revile you... seek vengeance"? Or is it:

"You must love God with you WHOLE heart, soul, mind, and strength..."
AND... "You MUST love your neighbor AS yourself"?

If one is a CHRISTIAN, then it is ALSO "You must LOVE your enemy... and PRAY for them... and PROVE yourselves sons of your Father..." and NOT "If your enemy does you harm, you must retaliate." Nor is it, "You must go to war with your enemy to protect yourself/your loved one from... communism... drugs... Islam..."

Do you SEE, dear P?

So, there is no "christian" (meaning, one who calls himself/herself such because they "believe in Jesus" or belong to a certain religion (of "christianity")... who can "judge" a Muslim. BOTH are in the same boat. Neither are following, adhering to, or listening to the God of ABRAHAM. ABRAHAM readily gave up his wife to another man TO AVOID WAR. Gave up vast amounts of land to his nephew TO AVOID CONFLICT. And offered up his own son to the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, to demonstrate his FAITH in that One, that that One would bring his son BACK from death. He wasn't worried that his son might/was going to die - HE was worried that HE might now show his FAITH.

So, again, I hope you can "see" that there truly is no difference between these two groups... except perhaps the time period in which they commit their acts. For us, perhaps it seems a long time ago since "christians" did their "dirt," and so Muslims should just "get over it." I would offer, though, that the time that has passed is NOTHING in the eyes of God. It was merely a moment.

That folks KNOW the history of their forerunners, however, yet now CLING to them... as if their the "dirt" has somehow been washed away, somehow covered over... YET... NONE of these have ACTUALLY gone to Christ... AND RECEIVED HOLY SPIRIT, the "water" of Life... so as to BE washed clean... is what will be their downfall. They will still be "marked" by their "dirt"... and by the "wild beast." They will not be able to hide. They will not be able to say, "Lord, Lord, did we not... do such and so 'in your name'?!" It just won't fly.

What WILL fly is for them to HEAR the call... of the Spirit and his Bride when they say TO such one:

"Come! Take LIFE's (Christ's) water... which water is the the blood, breath, and seed, of God, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, which is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and that HOLY SPIRIT, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

That "water"... God's holy spirit... His BLOOD... which blood is granted through the blood of CHRIST... is the ONLY thing that "washes" away sin and error. That... and death. Death, however, does not automatically grant LIFE. LIFE... AFTER death... is a gift granted by God... through Christ. There is no other Way, luv. No other.

I hope this helps. I hope it's not too much information for you, but it is pertinent... and true... and may perhaps help you put your current... ummmmm... paradigms as to "christians" and Muslims... in the PROPER perspective.

As always, peace to you and to your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


I don't have any issues with this at all.
What I have issues with is that you seem to be implying ( though I don't think you are) that those Christians that were killed by ISIS were somehow NOT of the Christ because they belonged to mainstream Christianity and were probably up to "no good".
The vast majority were not missionaries and MANy were children and those that were missionaries were not of the "forceful conversion" types but people teaching in schools and helping in hospitals.

Also, to suggest that one is not of Christ because they use the name Jesus as opposed to Jaheshua is, well, wrong.


By the way, where in the OT does it state that it is ok to kill someone that did not convert to Judaisim?
It does say so in the Quran:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran ... olence.htm


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:49 am 
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PS: Regarding what you said here:

"What I have issues with is that you seem to be implying (though I don't think you are) that those Christians that were killed by ISIS were somehow NOT of the Christ because they belonged to mainstream Christianity and were probably up to 'no good'".

Because “those Christians . . . belonged to mainstream Christianity,” “and were probably up to ‘no good,’” they were “NOT of the Christ” is correct. While Christ does have “some” of his sheep in the various churches/pens, they have been and are being called out from those pens and, in fact, are commanded/directed to “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.” (John 10:1-5; Revelation 18:4)

Being a “follower” of Christ does not a Christian make.

Being a “follower” of Christ (while a good thing) does not a Christian make. Do you not recall what John 6:60-68 reads:

60 When they heard this, many of his disciples said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble you? 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” [And yet, they were disciples, learners, followers of Christ.] For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 Because of this, many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve: “You do not want to go also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.

Therefore, while being a “follower” or “disciples” is a good thing, it does NOT make you a Christian.

Even the 12 apostles were NOT Christians UNTIL they were anointed with holy spirit when Christ blew on them holy spirit on the day after his resurrection. You can read it yourself at John 20:19-22:

When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again: “May you have peace. Just as the Father has sent me, I also am sending you.” 22 After saying this he blew on them and said to them: “Receive holy spirit.”

NOW, they were Christians.

May you have Peace, PS.

--Armand


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:09 pm 
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PS:

You also say:
“[T]hose that were missionaries were not of the ‘forceful conversion’ types but people teaching in schools and helping in hospitals.”

Coupled with what I said before to you, PS, performing “good deeds” does not necessarily get you Christ’s approval. Christ himself said so. You can find that at Matthew 7:21-23. It reads:

21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!”

So . . . what do you “get” from reading the above? It takes more than just “teaching in schools and helping in hospitals” to have the Lord’s approval—something much more. Do you know?

Peace!

--Armand


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:21 pm 
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May you have peace, dear, dear Paul!


I, too, think that you and Shelby have been having a great discussion. I did not want to intervene. But if I may, I would like to respond on two matters as well.

Quote:
Also, to suggest that one is not of Christ because they use the name Jesus as opposed to Jaheshua is, well, wrong.


I think the point is that just because someone uses the name Jesus and says 'Jesus is Lord' does not mean that they are a Christian. Anyone can say these words, and many have done so who have shown by their actions and often also by their teachings that they are not even a follower of Christ, much less a Christian.

Consider the Westboro Baptists. Are they filled with holy spirit, guided by the spirit, Christian... just because they say Jesus is Lord?

There are also support groups for clergy and priests who do not even believe in God anymore, but still take the pulpit and preach the same things they always preached that they learned from their religion, from men.

http://clergyproject.org/


Then of course there are our Lord's own words, in that not everyone who calls Him Lord is even known BY Him.

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'




Now, as for this verse, there is a little more to it:

Quote:
9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation.


If a person TRULY believed that Christ is ALIVE, then they would not be putting their faith in men, but rather would be asking Christ Himself, the LIVING Word of God. Because they would then know that HE lives and speaks.

Many who call upon "Jesus" are calling upon the "Jesus" that their religion has taught them, the "Jesus" that man has made in his own image. (you know, the gun-toting Jesus; or the 'god-hates' certain people Jesus; or the Jesus that is going to return and kill people; or the Jesus that wants you to fight against Muslims, or Jews, or atheists, etc, etc.) And that is the "Jesus" then that answers them... or rather is silent.


I am not saying that you do not understand this point, Paul. I think you do. But for the sake of anyone at all who might be reading, who does not understand this.



**

I have to end here as I am running short on time, but I may put up a thread about holy books as soon as I am able. Because the second point is with regard to your earlier point that the Quran calls for Christians to be killed. So I will leave you with just a couple quick verses from the Quran, in addition to the verses that you supplied. Because Islam should have no problem with Christians according to its holy book... at least not for being Christian.


Forgive them (people of the book) and bear with them until God makes known His will. God has power over all things.

If you punish, let your punishment be commensurate with the wrong that has been done you. But it shall be best for you to endure your wrongs with patience. Be patient, then: God will grant you patience.

To those who were given the Scriptures and to the Gentiles say, 'Will you submit to God?' If they become Muslims they shall be rightly guided; if they pay no heed, then your only duty is to warn them."







Peace to you Paul, and to you all,
your sister and servant and a fellow slave of CHRIST,
tammy


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:06 pm 
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Quote:
I don't have any issues with this at all.


Good to hear, dear brother (LOLOL and peace to you!). I don't want to overburden you, given the beneficial things dear Armand and dear tec (peace to you both!) have also shared here, but since we are having a very nice discussion, IMHO, I'd like to continue:

Quote:
What I have issues with is that you seem to be implying ( though I don't think you are) that those Christians that were killed by ISIS were somehow NOT of the Christ because they belonged to mainstream Christianity and were probably up to "no good".


While I do NOT imply they were up to "no good" (not at all), I offer the following, as to the first part of what you state. First, from Christ:

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

This initially had implication as to Judaism and the temple that fortified it: JAH would not "heal" ("patch") the OLD "garment" (Israel of the flesh that adhered to the OLD Law), but would heal Israel by SPIRIT, by means of the NEW Law. And He would JAH would not put His spirit... or blood... or "new wine"... into an OLD receptacle (old wine skin), the temple; rather, He had put it into a NEW "wine skin"... or temple... His SON. And that Son puts it... that "new wine"... or blood... life... SPIRIT... in the REMAINING "stones" of God's "temple." 1 Peter 2:4, 5

He would not put His spirit in the Old temple... because that edifice... and those who worshipped in it and by means of it... were UNCLEAN. By means of the things they DID. They and, most particularly, their priestly LEADERS. Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Malachi...

Hence, Paul wrote:

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Beli'Jah'El? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”

''Therefore,

Come out from them
and be separate
,
says JaHVeH.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.

And [if you do],

I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says JaHVeH Almighty.”



The Greek word for "unbeliever" is apistos (G571). It means "one lacking faith." NOT one who does not believe. The demons BELIEVE ... in God... and that Jah'eShua is the Son of God; indeed, some of them even glorified God. Matthew 8:28-32; Acts 16:16-18; James 2:19

But these lack FAITH... such they do not listen to the One who speaks from the heavens (spirit realm) but listen to men... blind guides... who prophesy falsely, lie, profane, idolize, fornicate with the kings of the earth... molest children... hide/support/protect those who molest children... and stumble those who follow them OVER Christ, the ROCK... and Stone OF Stumbling. Hence, as Christ said:

"... they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the pit.” Matthew 15:14

These "christians"... i.e., the "laity"... may not be committing (or sanctioning) the horrible acts done by their leaders... or being hidden by their leaders... but they are TOUCHING these unclean ones, spiritually fornicating with them, actually. For instance, Christ said we are not to call anyone on earth our Father, because have one Father, God. Yet, how many call their priests, bishops, popes, etc., not just "Father," but at least one "HOLY Father"?? Is that not adultery, in a spiritual sense? What of their "yoking"? They HAVE a husband, Christ - why, then, do they need to follow... adhere... to the law of OTHER men???

Quote:
The vast majority were not missionaries and MANy were children and those that were missionaries were not of the "forceful conversion" types but people teaching in schools and helping in hospitals.


So, okay, it's wrong to kill children. Absolutely. I do NOT disagree. Is it right, though... to molest them? Or to hide those that have/do? On the other hand, how many children have been killed BY "christians"? Over how long a period?

C'mon, dear P... how can their darkness NOW be light?? When did Christ himself say HE cleansed them??

Quote:
Also, to suggest that one is not of Christ because they use the name Jesus as opposed to Jaheshua is, well, wrong.


You are entitled to your opinion; however, how can one be of Christ... when they not only call him by a name that is not only not his, but one that has been profaned and used to commit all manner of atrocities in the earth? How can that BE, though, in light of the words YOU quoted... that such a name can't even be uttered as "Lord"... WITHOUT holy spirit?? How can holy spirit utter than name in GLORY... and yet, utter in PROFANITY?? Yet, how many times do people profane THAT name, "Jesus," both unintentionally AND on purpose? How many have committed utter GENOCIDE... on the basis of that name?

Wait, I just heard...

"Onward christian soldiers
Marching off to war
With the cross of JESUS
Going on before..."


How many MODERN "christians" look to just that one song to support their "march" into real (not spiritual) war? Here's one very important example:

Quote:
When Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt met in August 1941 on the battleship HMS Prince of Wales to agree the Atlantic Charter, a church service was held for which Prime Minister Churchill chose the hymns. He chose "Onward, Christian Soldiers" and afterwards made a radio broadcast explaining this choice:[7]

We sang "Onward, Christian Soldiers" indeed, and I felt that this was no vain presumption, but that we had the right to feel that we serving a cause for the sake of which a trumpet has sounded from on high. When I looked upon that densely packed congregation of fighting men of the same language, of the same faith, of the same fundamental laws, of the same ideals ... it swept across me that here was the only hope, but also the sure hope, of saving the world from measureless degradation.

— Winston Churchill



Ummmmm... what happened to CHRIST... y'know... whose "soldiers" these supposedly were (y'know, 'cause they were "CHRISTIAN" soldiers)... saving the world??? True, he didn't come to save it literally when he was last here... but is that not the purpose of his coming, to save it at a FUTURE time? John 3:16 When did he appoint any HUMAN to save it... IN HIS PLACE?

Quote:
By the way, where in the OT does it state that it is ok to kill someone that did not convert to Judaisim?


Oh, dear, dear brother. It may not say it's okay to kill someone that didn't convert to Judaism but it DOES say what one is to do to an "infidel"... a believer who turns away:

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. JaHVeH your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is JaHVeH your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against JaHVeH your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way JaHVeH your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from JaHVeH your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

"If you hear it said about one of the towns JaHVeH your God is giving you to live in that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword ALL who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to JaHVeH your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then JaHVeH will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— because you obey JaHVeH your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes."


Now, was this REALLY what they were to do? No, of course not. They were to SURPASS the Law... with love. And so, Christ didn't personally condemn any of the false prophets of his day, although he openly condemned their WORKS and hypocrisy. And he didn't stone anyone... even though he was surrounded by people, even priests and religious leaders, who had left the Law of JAH[VeH], as to the Old Law handed down by Moses, the law given to Abraham.. which he passed on to Isaac, who passed it on to Jacob (Israel)... who passed it on to his sons... including Judah (with Joseph being the only son who KEPT it - LOVE... for his BROTHER).

Do you think the Israelites DIDN'T stone such people, though, or completely destroy such towns? Do you think the Yehudi (Jews) didn't? Do you think... the RCC didn't? And look at what all has come out of HER.

Quote:
It does say so in the Quran:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran ... olence.htm


I personally think it would be better for you to read the Quran for yourself than to take quotes from a site such as the one you've linked. Frightening, the propaganda. Even so, let me ask you:

How many were killed in the Spanish Inquisition? The Medieval Inquisition? The Roman Inquisition? No, let's get real serious here:

How many were killed in WWI... which was war BETWEEN "CHRISTIANS"?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/201 ... eview.html

How about WWII?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm

And what were the religions of the so-called "Axis of Evil", Germany, Italy, and Japan? At least two were HUGELY "christian", no?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm

And what did these "christians" do to JEWS during that time, let alone to OTHER "CHRISTIANS"?

How many died in just these two wars, luv? How about approx. 17 MILLION for WWI... and WWII? OMG...

Quote:
World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history in absolute terms of total dead.[1] Over 60 million people were killed, which was about 3% of the 1940 world population (est. 2.3 billion[2]). The tables below give a detailed country-by-country count of human losses. World War II fatality statistics vary, with estimates of total dead ranging from 50 million to more than 80 million.[3] The higher figure of over 80 million includes deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilians killed totaled 50 to 55 million, including 19 to 28 million from war-related disease and famine. Total military dead: from 21 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war.


These events may seem like a long, long time ago, dear one... but our parents were alive during them. So they were not THAT long ago.

What about "christians" in the Korean War? Vietnam War? Falklands? Desert Storm? What are "christians" DOING... in the WORLD'S wars??? Christ said HIS kingdom was "NO PART of this world." HE didn't take action against those who reviled against him PERSONALLY. Nor did he direct his disciples to do so. OR his apostles - and we KNOW they were true Christians.

And you know what else we know? Many of them died... BECAUSE they WERE christians. CHRIST died... BECAUSE... he was a christian. A CHOSEN... ANOINTED... one of God. THE Chosen One. THE Anointed One.

These died... because they were KILLED. By whom? Muslims? I don't think you'll find that in the history, luv. I THINK you'll find that they were killed by Romans... and at the behest of Jews.

And now "christians" not only kill Muslims... but one another. And have been... for millenia.

WE, though, aren't supposed to take part in ANY of this. AND... if it turns out to be our lot to BE persecuted... even killed... FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHRIST... well, isn't that what we're supposed to do?

Blessed are the peaceable,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matthew 5:9-12


Of course, you and these other "christians" might say, "But what if they attack YOU first?"

If they are a CHRISTIAN, by holy SPIRIT... and TRULY FOLLOWING Christ... then they listen to HIM... yes? And what does HE say as to when someone attacks you?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person[/b]. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also." Matthew 5:38, 39

So that, even if they can't literally hear his voice (although, how that can be is beyond me... as he is alive and speaks, by means of holy spirit, to those who HAVE his spirit... which is what MAKES them a christian... but for the sake of argument, let's say they can't hear him)... they have his words WRITTEN... do they not??

So, when is war/fighting/retaliation... by a CHRISTIAN... FOR THE SAKE OF BEING A CHRISTIAN... EVER... justified?? If the one they claim to follow... to love... to believe in... have faith in... OBEY... says do NOT fight... how can they do so and STILL claim to love, believe, have faith in... FOLLOW... such a one??

These, though, want to have it both ways: they want to ACT like the world, like the nations around them... yet, still claim a union with God/Christ. As Israel did. But it was doing so that SEPARATED them from God.

And it is the same today, luv. These will one day say to Christ, "Lord, Lord, did we not... in your name?" and HE will say to them:

"‘I... never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’" Matthew 7:22

He won't turn them away because they were Catholics, or Muslims, or Buddhists, per SE. He will turn them away... because he doesn't KNOW them. He doesn't KNOW them... because they don't BELONG to him. They are NOT... HIS sheep. How do we KNOW? Because he SAID:

"... anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” [Jesus] used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

Therefore [Jesus] said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

The Jews who heard these words were again divided. Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the [Messiah], tell us plainly.”

[Jesus] answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."
John 10:1-29

We don't HAVE to fight our enemies... any more than Christ had to fight his. Or John the Baptist had to fight. Or Stephen. Or Paul. Or Peter. Or John. Or ANY who belong to Christ. We are not promised THIS life. Indeed, we may have to lay DOWN this life. But as Christ also said:

"What profit a man... if he gains the WHOLE world... but LOSES his SPIRIT"? Forfeits his opportunity for EVERLASTING life... for the PIT?

The true christian does not live for the here and now. He KNOWS the "flesh is of NO use AT ALL." So, he doesn't sacrifice his eternal life FOR it. RATHER... he LISTENS to and follows CHRIST... who SAID those who belong to him would BE persecuted, even put to death... FOR HIM.

And so that's why I say, dear, dear P, that Muslims aren't killing "christians" BECAUSE they are christians. They are killing people who CLAIM to be christians... because they are tools being used by the Adversary to "wage war with the remaining ones of the seed [of the Woman]." Just as many so-called "christians" are ALSO being used: to kill OTHER (so-called) "christians." BOTH are doing the work of the Adversary.

I hope that helps you "see," truly.

As always, peace to you and your dear, dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:22 am 
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Therefore, while being a “follower” or “disciples” is a good thing, it does NOT make you a Christian.

Even the 12 apostles were NOT Christians UNTIL they were anointed with holy spirit when Christ blew on them holy spirit on the day after his resurrection. You can read it yourself at John 20:19-22:....




Good Morning and peace to you all this day.

There has been a lot of wonderful truths shared on this thread but something that my Lord directed me to last night was this and it is pertinent to what has been shared as to the difference as to a follower/ disciple versus a Christian.

Acts chapter 11 and particularly verse 26...

..." It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was FIRST in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians."


So it wasn't until a disciple of Jaheshua received Holy Spirit that they were now called Christians.

Just wanted to share this, peace and love to you all, your sister and fellow servant of Christ, Kim


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:57 am 
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Thank you for sharing that, dear 'Mom (and peace to you, luv!). This was along the lines of the point I was directed to share before (and so thank you, as well, dear Armand)... that a "disciple" does not a "christian" make. Another VERY good example of that is recorded at John 6:53-66:

"[Jesus] said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

"On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?

"Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, [Jesus] said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For [Jesus] had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

"From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."


SO many things to "see" here! First, just because one is a DISCIPLE of Christ... does not mean one HAS FAITH (i.e., is a BELIEVER). Second, just because one is a DISCIPLE... does not mean one can ACCEPT... RECEIVE... ALL that Christ has to SAY. Third, EVEN though some followed him, Christ KNEW they weren't believers... didn't have FAITH. And finally, it is NOT up to the one CHOOSING - we do not CHOOSE Christ - HE chooses US. And that CHOOSING... is ONLY by permission of the FATHER (Isaiah 8:18; John 17:6 Hebrews 2:13).

Because, as Christ said he had ALSO told them:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them." John 6:44

Which is why he said:

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit..." John 15:16

These poor people are out here THINKING they chose [to follow] Christ. They think that because of the LIES told by the FALSE christs/anointed, FALSE prophets, and corrupt and hypocritical religious leaders and scribes. Come to THEM... come to their RELIGION... and you come to Christ! LIES!! Even the FIRST disciples didn't come to Christ - HE WENT OUT AND FOUND THEM:

"As [Jesus] was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” [Jesus] said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” At once they left their nets and followed him.

"Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. [Jesus] called them, and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him."
Matthew 4:18-22

Now, did he just call out, "Hey, you! You guys over there [casting nets/fishing]!"? Nope. He called them as he said he would - BY NAME:

"The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out." John 10:3:

Do we have SCRIPTURAL examples of this? We do:

Genesis 22:1, 11; 31:11; 46:2;
Exodus 3:4
1 Samuel 3:4, 6, 8, 10


People don't get it, though. They think they can choose, but they don't understand just what... and WHOM... it IS they need TO choose. And so they don't, really. They choose what they want, believe what they want, and follow who they want, none of which has anything to do with the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit.

A good example of this is those who THINK it makes no difference what NAME they use... call upon. "WHO" it IS they follow. But... it does. I promise you dear ones... it matters a GREAT deal.

But I can only share that; I can't make anyone believe it or put faith in it. Nor is it my job, our job. We can only SHARE the truth - we cannot make anyone ACCEPT it. Anymore than our dear Lord could make those accept the truth HE told them... as to eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Or any of the other things he told them.

Unfortunately, these same ones are not only fooling others but fooling themselves. Because they are, in fact, going to be those who say, "Lord, Lord... didn't we do such and such IN YOUR NAME?" They don't KNOW his name, though... or use it. So, whatever they "did" was NOT in his name. And so he WILL be able to righteously say:

"Get away from me - I never knew YOU."

They may CLAIM to know him... but that's not what will count. What will count is whether HE knows THEM. And there is only one way that is possible: yada. To know. In the same way a man (intimately) "knows" a woman. Because "they" are SUPPOSED to be (of his) Bride. And so that knowledge would be an intimate one... but one of SPIRIT, not of flesh. A TRUE union... between a man (the Bridegroom, Christ)... and his Bride.

THESE are ones who, along with HIM... KEEP saying... to ANYONE wishing and thirsting:

"COME! Take LIFE'S (Christ's) water... his blood, breath, and seed... which is the blood, breath, and seed of his FATHER, the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... who PUT such blood, breath, and seed IN that One... His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the CHOSEN One of JAH (MischaJah)... so that that One could POUR OUT such upon... and put IN... his Bride... FREE!"

At NO cost... at least as far as earthly "valuables" go. The only "price"... is faith IN that One... to the point of LISTENING to HIS voice and DOING what HE says to do. In THAT way, one shows who they TRULY belong to and not just follow (the teachings of). They DO the things he says.

And HE said:

"Do NOT return evil for evil... or go reviling when being reviled."

HE said:

"You must LOVE your enemies and PRAY for them... and PROVE yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens."

When we return evil for evil... when we revile for being reviled... when we hate our enemies... or take vengeance upon them... then we are PROVING... whose sons we are NOT... and whose sons we TRULY are. 1 John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:3-11

It's not rocket science, dear ones. Truly, it isn't. It is really very elementary. So elementary... even a child can grasp it.

I hope this helps.

As always, peace to you ALL... and to your dear households!

YSSFS of Christ

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:39 pm 
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Epilogue (and peace to you, all!):

I realize that what I shared above may be offensive to some. Totally get that. But I have always shared that NO ONE should listen to ME as to ANY of these things, but ask for themselves. Hearing, however, is sometimes difficult for some and so they often lean upon the writings. To that end, I offer, rather than take MY word for what I shared, at least consider taking the word of the One we're speaking about, Christ.

And HE said (well, he's recorded to have said, and for anyone who CAN'T hear him, this has to be the gauge):

"For many... are CALLED (and indeed, many are!).. but FEW... ARE CHOSEN."Matthew 22:14

I totally understand how this might rankle some ("Who are YOU to say only a few are chosen!?")... but I didn't say it. I am only repeating it. I am sure that those outside of the nation of Israel felt the same way, if/when Israel "lorded" their position with God over them. I am sure Israel felt the same way when Christ came on the scene. Indeed, their leaders often challenged him as to HIS choosing (by the Father - "WE are Abraham's seed! Who the heck are YOU!?" Well, we all know how they felt about him being the "Son of God").

Thing is... truth... is truth. True, not everyone can receive truth and that's particularly so with this matter. Who truly IS to say (who is chosen and who is not)? All we can do is speak the truth about it... and wait. Eventually, what was hidden will be brought to light and the TRUE sons of God will be revealed... before ALL creation.

No use taking offense in the mean time, though. I mean, if one IS a son of God, then all one needs do is continue to walk in faith, listening to and following Christ... and keeping an eye on their OWN conduct... while waiting for their revealing. If one is NOT, however, then it's kind of a given that one WOULD take offense. I mean, if history is any gauge of such things. Because it has ALWAYS been the one(s) who are NOT the heirs but only BELIEVE they are... who TAKE offense... and who persecute those who ARE the heirs... for SAYING so.

Peace to you all... and to your households!

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Quote:
Acts chapter 11 and particularly verse 26...

..." It thus came about that for a whole year they gathered together with them in the congregation and taught quite a crowd, and it was FIRST in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians."


Well now that is interesting. Because I didn't remember ever reading 'divine providence' or something similar about that verse. I understood that we are not Christian just because we say so, but this verse always bothered me because it seemed to read that way. Apparently there are very few translations that mention 'divine' anything in that calling. Only one other that I found, other than what Justmom shared above (which I am assuming is in the NWT). So I went and looked it up on Blue Letter Bible for anyone else who might also want to see it in writing:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5537&t=KJV


I. to transact business, esp. to manage public affairs
A) to advise or consult with one about public affairs
B) to make answer to those who ask for advice, present enquiries or requests, etc.
i) of judges, magistrates, rulers, kings

II. to give a response to those consulting an oracle, to give a divine command or admonition, to teach from heaven
A) to be divinely commanded, admonished, instructed
B) to be the mouthpiece of divine revelations, to promulgate the commands of God


III. to assume or take to one's self a name from one's public business
A) to receive a name or title, be called



The understanding is greatly hidden, so as to even be lost, at least if one is looking only at what is written here in this verse, due to the scribes' choice and error.




Peace to you all, and love,
your sister and servant and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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