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 Post subject: Revelation and Islam ?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:14 am 
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On another board they were discussion Revelation and the following was brought up:

How the Babylon of Revelation would have been interpreted by the direct readers of Revelation as the Roman Empire, considering what Christians were going through and had gone through ( and would go through) at the time of its writing/reading.
That said, and as we know that prophecies can be far reaching and not just apply to the near-future, one person pointed out that Babylon can mean the Babylon of today and by that the Islamic States that, well, are where Babylon used to be.
Iran and Iraq in particular in terms of geography.
Then someone mentioned the 4 horseman and their colours : Red, Black, White and "pale" ( in greek the word means more of a pale green or light green) and noted that these are the colours of the islamic states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_flags
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_flag

Hmmm....


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:21 pm 
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Greetings, dear P, and peace to you, luv!

While it would be possible for the RCC to be (part of) Babylon the Great, it would be impossible for either the Roman Empire (if by that term you do NOT mean the RCC, but Rome and its government) or Islam to be "Babylon the Great," based on one simple truth: "she" is an "adulteress." Which means, she had illicit relations and with someone NOT her "husband." Neither Rome/its government or Islam were ever "married" to JAH or Christ.

Now, the RCC did and does make claim to be (part of) Christ's Bride and it's understandable that some might think "she" is Babylon the Great, but the RCC was not the first to commit adultery against God and Christ: we have evidence from the writings of Peter, Paul, Jude, and John that there were many of the first century who were apostasizing very soon after our dear Lord's death. And certainly, Israel/the Jews were!

In addition, the RCC is STILL doing so and so they are certainly a PART of this "harlot." But so are all the other religions (that claim to belong to Christ, but are in bed with the kings of the earth).

In truth, it is those who initially claimed to belong to Christ, "married" to him in spirit and so part of his Bride... but who "commit adultery" and "fornicate with the kings of the earth" who initially constitute "Babylon" [the Great]. And these who have since "birthed" a plethora of "daughters", those of various "christian" religions who make the same claim... but who show themselves to be committing the same fornication and adultery. She is the Great Harlot... and those who come out of her [fornication with the kings of the earth] are her "daughters." Since they, too, are adultresses and fornicators, she is also called "The Mother of the Harlots".

Why is she called "Babylon the Great"? Because of what Nebuchadnezzar's grandson, Belshazzar did:

"King Belshazzar gave a great banquet for a thousand of his nobles and drank wine with them. While Belshazzar was drinking his wine, he gave orders to bring in the gold and silver goblets that Nebuchadnezzar his forefather had taken from the temple in Jerusalem, so that the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines might drink from them. So they brought in the gold goblets that had been taken from the temple of God in Jerusalem, and the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines drank from them. As they drank the wine, they praised the gods of gold and silver, of bronze, iron, wood and stone.

"Suddenly the fingers of a hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall, near the lampstand in the royal palace. The king watched the hand as it wrote. His face turned pale and he was so frightened that his legs became weak and his knees were knocking.

The king summoned the enchanters, astrologers and diviners. Then he said to these wise men of Babylon, “Whoever reads this writing and tells me what it means will be clothed in purple and have a gold chain placed around his neck, and he will be made the third highest ruler in the kingdom.”

"The queen, hearing the voices of the king and his nobles, came into the banquet hall. “May the king live forever!” she said. “Don’t be alarmed! Don’t look so pale! There is a man in your kingdom who has the spirit of the holy gods in him. In the time of your father he was found to have insight and intelligence and wisdom like that of the gods. Your father, King Nebuchadnezzar, appointed him chief of the magicians, enchanters, astrologers and diviners. He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.”

So Daniel was brought before the king, and the king said to him, “Are you Daniel, one of the exiles my father the king brought from Judah? I have heard that the spirit of the gods is in you and that you have insight, intelligence and outstanding wisdom. The wise men and enchanters were brought before me to read this writing and tell me what it means, but they could not explain it. Now I have heard that you are able to give interpretations and to solve difficult problems. If you can read this writing and tell me what it means, you will be clothed in purple and have a gold chain placed around your neck, and you will be made the third highest ruler in the kingdom.”

Then Daniel answered the king, “You may keep your gifts for yourself and give your rewards to someone else. Nevertheless, I will read the writing for the king and tell him what it means.

“Your Majesty, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor. Because of the high position he gave him, all the nations and peoples of every language dreaded and feared him. Those the king wanted to put to death, he put to death; those he wanted to spare, he spared; those he wanted to promote, he promoted; and those he wanted to humble, he humbled. But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory. 21 He was driven away from people and given the mind of an animal; he lived with the wild donkeys and ate grass like the ox; and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he acknowledged that the Most High God is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and sets over them anyone he wishes.

But you, Belshazzar, his son, have not humbled yourself, though you knew all this. Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways. Therefore he sent the hand that wrote the inscription.

“This is the inscription that was written:

mene, mene, tekel, parsin

“Here is what these words mean:

Mene: God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.
Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.
Peres: Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”

"Then all the king’s wise men came in, but they could not read the writing or tell the king what it meant. So King Belshazzar became even more terrified and his face grew more pale. His nobles were baffled."
Daniel 5:1-8

Babylon the GREAT's days are numbered, too, and HER reign will be brought to an end. She has been weighed and found wanting (lacking) for some time. And is not her kingdom divided? How many "daughters"... or denominations... does she have? How many denominations WITHIN denominations??

Now, compare Revelation 18:1-8, which describes "Babylon the Great," who believes SHE sits a queen... with Isaiah 52:1-12, which talks about the TRUE "Queen," the TRUE Bride of the KING, Christ. She, "Zion", who is the NEW Jerusalem.

I hope this helps, truly.

As always, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:49 am 
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BUT Babylon is always describes as a "solid" entity and religion isn't.
Babylon is described as being somewhere in specific and being worshiped and admired ( religion isn't worshiped per say and religious people are admired, religionisn't admired at all).
Islam was of Jah ( their Allah), through Ishamel, they follow the Torah, the Prophets and so forth and believe that they are following the "true God".
Yes, they deny Christ and even made up things about him and they blasphemy the HS ( making them anti-christ's in the truest sense).
See, I can see your point about Christian that have fallen from Christ BUT I don't think we can exclude Islam and, perhaps, it will play a far larger role ( it already is with the martyring of some many Christians) then we may think.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:22 pm 
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Quote:
BUT Babylon is always describes as a "solid" entity and religion isn't.


Greetings and peace to you, luv! I'm not sure I know what you mean by "solid." If it's what I think it is, then that further supports what I shared. I'll wait until you tell me, though, before delving into that - LOL!

Quote:
Babylon is described as being somewhere in specific


You misunderstand, luv - True, she is referred to as "a dwelling [for demons] and a haunt for every impure spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal." But Babylon "the Great" is not a "somewhere", as in a geographical location. She is a someONE. A "person." Granted, "she" is not a physical person but an antitype, depicted metaphorically. We are not geographical locations; yet, God and Christ (can) dwell in US. These "unclean" things dwell in her, not as in a literal city, but as demons dwell in (possess/occupy) people. The unclean "bird" is a mistransliteration from unclean "flying thing" (i.e., unclean spirit). The scribes know of nothing that flies EXCEPT birds; hence, their mistransliteration.

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and being worshiped and admired ( religion isn't worshiped per say and religious people are admired, religion isn't admired at all).


Au contrare!! Religion might be admired by SOME, but it is far, far more admired than it is not. Indeed, most people on this planet cannot fathom life WITHOUT (some manner of) religion. Doesn't have to be THEIR religion, but has to be SOME religion (translation, belief in "God" manifested through some institutionalized or [widely] recognized and certainly VISIBLE "form of worship"). I mean, how many times are you asked, "What religion are you?" or "What church do you go to?" I am asked both quite a lot. And so long as I say, "I'm a [insert institutionalized/recognized religion]" and "I go to [insert name of church]", all is well. But let me say, "I don't go TO a church; I AM the church because Christ dwells in ME," oh Lordy! Or if I say, "I don't belong to/believe in [a] religion," well, double oh


of I can think of a PLETHORA of examples that show religion IS admired. Just one is religious conversion. True, some convert because they admire a certain person of a certain religious persuasion, but most do so because they admire the religion itself. And not just its beliefs. Think, for example, of all the people who belong to, say, a certain religion because of the large and beautiful building(s) they happen to meet in. Or the particular "work" the religion engages in. Or its financial assets and real estate holdings and investments.

Or for it's political clout. For example, JFK was Roman Catholic. He married Jacqueline Bouvier, however, simply BECAUSE she was a Protestant (he admired Protestantism and so he intended to convert). Before he could, however, Jackie converted to Roman Catholicism (which he was VERY unhappy about - first, as to his own intent to convert and also because he thought it would undermine his political aspirations - no RC had ever been elected President before).

I would even be willing to say that people convert to other religions far MORE because they admire the RELIGION (its teachings AND its physical manifestation through its ostentatious apparel, edifices, recited creeds, symbols, artifacts, etc.).

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Islam was of Jah (their Allah), through Ishamel, they follow the Torah, the Prophets and so forth and believe that they are following the "true God".


This is true. BUT... Ishmael was never considered to be in an intimate relationship with JAH. That relationship was with Isaac and HIS progeny. Ishmael worshipped JAH because their FATHER, Abraham, worshipped JAH. As it was with Isaac. But the PROMISE was to come through ISAAC... and so Israel was chosen. Not the sons of Ishmael. Same God, yes, but NOT the same relationship. Indeed, those who follow Islam consider the Jews ("Isaac") to be infidels (which is TRUE, actually). That is the primary underlying foundation of their division: "Ishmael" (Islam) has a problem with "Isaac" (Jews) adultery as to JAH.

HOWEVER, they don't have it right EITHER. How so? NEITHER of these look to CHRIST... to the One who JAH Himself SENT. To save Israel, the Jews AND the Samaritans... AND the seed of Ishmael. Save "Messianic" Jews, both deny that One - first century Jews calling for his death, first century descendants of Ishmael not stepping up and acknowledging him, modern orthodox/reformed Jews denying him as MischaJah (the Chosen/Anointed One of JAH), and Islam not just denying Christ but denying that JAH has a son at all.

Quote:
Yes, they deny Christ and even made up things about him and they blasphemy the HS ( making them anti-christ's in the truest sense).


Well, not entirely. They deny him on the basis of JAH's words that He is One and there is no other. They consider the disregard of those words... and the injection of a Son... as blasphemy. But that is because their information came through Ishmael, who was not PRIVY to knowledge of the Son, rather than through Isaac. In addition, Ishmael hated Isaac because the latter surplanted him as Abraham's heir. He had a close relationship with his father (Abraham) but was sent away with his mother at the behest of Sarah. Hagar had a pretty good position in the house, so long as Ishmael was the only son - unfortunately, he was not the son of the promise. And so "Ishmael" persecuted Isaac... and did his offspring persecuted Isaac's offspring... and still do.

BUT, in their treatment of the TRUE Body of Christ, those who are TRULY chosen/anointed (mischaJAHs), many Jews and so-called "christians" show that THEY are actually offspring of Ishmael TOO. See, just because one CALLS oneself a Jew/Israelite, doesn't mean one IS. Once Israel was exiled into Babylon that the first temple was destroyed, there were little to no records to say who truly was who (from which tribe). Then, when the temple was destroyed in 70 CE, ALL of the records were lost. And once the Roman persecution of Jews ceased, well, anyone could step up and call themselves a Jew. Because there was really only one way to PROVE it: circumcision. Get circumcised... and you were immediately a Jew, by conversion, if not by blood. Some, though, lay claim to being so by blood, but truly were not. And that is a large part of what is in the world today: people CLAIMING to be Jews, Isaac's seed, but who are not.

And yes, I know there are blood tests. Thing is, again, the record only goes back so far. That people hail from a certain region does not make them a Jew. If that were the case, then the fight with the Palestinians should have ended long, long ago. What makes one a Jew is to have descended from Judah/Benjamin... and thus from Abraham... through Isaac. No blood test can prove that, however. At least, not any earthly blood test. But there is a SPIRITUAL blood test that can: holy spirit. God's own blood. HIS blood KNOWS (yada) Abraham's blood... and where it is in the earth. Because... the blood speaks.

Quote:
See, I can see your point about Christian that have fallen from Christ BUT I don't think we can exclude Islam and, perhaps, it will play a far larger role ( it already is with the martyring of some many Christians) then we may think.


We can exclude Islam because Islam was NEVER in a covenant or relationship with CHRIST. Ishmael may have been in one with JAH, but he was sent away and Isaac was brought in. In that light, ISRAEL was the one who was to adhere to Christ (as Moses told them, JAH was going to send Christ, "another Prophet", and they were to listen to and follow him. That directive was NEVER given to Ishmael, and so Ishmael was never BOUND to (follow) Christ.

Bound... as in a covenant relationship. Which is what a MARRIAGE is, luv. Israel was MARRIED to JAH. Hence, He called her Oholah and Oholibah, both of who fornicated and committed "adultery" as to that relationship. Those who remained TRUE, were given to His Son and so constitute the "NEW Jerusalem"... or dwelling place of God's spirit (Revelation 21:3)... THROUGH Christ.

Now, those of Ishmael's blood can very well be a part of that Bride/City... because part of HER is those of a "great crowd out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people." So that would include Ishmael. BUT it would be those of Ishmael who DID turn to and come into union with Christ. One does not have to be a Jew... or even of Israel. But one DOES have to be in union with (married to) Christ. And so, this would be those who WERE Islamic (by RELIGION)... but turned to Christ.

Look, though, how many these days turn to Islam... based on what they see Jews and "christians" doing in the earth. True, some might do so to follow Mohammed. But many do so because the "admire" the RELIGION: the doctrine of submission, the vengeance of jihad (and promise of 72 virgins - eye roll), etc.

Do you see? If not, it might help to stop allowing yourself to keep your mind "upon the things upon the earth," including governments, politics, etc., and raise it ABOVE... to the SPIRIT realm and how these things... ALL of these things... are TRULY about an entirely different realm. While they may have had some fulfillment here, that was when everything was about the flesh, about the physical realm (earth)... about the Law (Covenant). NOW... EVERYTHING in relation to Christ... is about the SPIRIT, about the spirit REALM, and about the NEW Covenant. And... how the two will become one.

How can we do that, see what's TRULY going on? By looking at... and keeping our gaze on... Christ. And not on what's occurring here, unless HE directs your gaze to such ("Behold! Look!"). Otherwise, you're looking through "blind" eyes. And so your looking will be in vain.

I hope this helps, luv, truly.

As always, the greatest of love and peace to you and to your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

P.S. Our dear Lord has directed me to remind you of the destiny and fate of BTG... and who brings that about... and why. Peace to you!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:35 am 
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So Islam is NOT BTG BUT it is PART of it?
Yes, that makes sense.
I have to be honest though, the description of the fall of Babylon is so vivid that it certainly seems to imply a city/state rather than an abstract thing.
Babylon Is Fallen
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “[a]Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a [b]prison of every unclean spirit, and a [c]prison of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all the nations [d]have drunk of the wine of the [e]passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the [f]wealth of her [g]sensuality.”

4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5 for her sins have [h]piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Pay her back even as she has paid, and [i]give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. 7 To the degree that she glorified herself and lived [j]sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’ 8 For this reason in one day her plagues will come, [k]pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Lament for Babylon
9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived [l]sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12 cargoes of gold and silver and precious [m]stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and [n]bronze and iron and marble, 13 and cinnamon and [o]spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and [p]slaves and [q]human lives. 14 The fruit [r]you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, 16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and [s]adorned with gold and precious [t]stones and pearls; 17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every [u]passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her [v]wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’ 20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you [w]saints and apostles and prophets, because God has [x]pronounced judgment for you against her.”

21 Then [y]a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22 And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of [z]saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:50 am 
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The other thing is that IF the Woman in Revelation 12 is the "nation" of Israel from which Christ is born ( the 12 starts being the 12 tribes of Israel) then it is inline with John's writings that the woman of Babylon is also a nation, no?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:01 pm 
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Hola, Paolo, hermano mio y la paz a ti! LOL!

Let's take the second one first, as it's quicker to respond to:

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IF the Woman in Revelation 12 is the "nation" of Israel from which Christ is born ( the 12 starts being the 12 tribes of Israel)


The Woman is not the "nation" of Israel, per se. She is the spirit realm (Jerusalem Above - Galatians 4:26) from which Christ was born (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 12:5). She has the 12 tribes "in her crown", in the sense that they are HER glory. They are her GLORY, in that they are HER sons (in contrast to BTG's "daughters").

Quote:
then it is inline with John's writings that the woman of Babylon is also a nation, no?


While John does depict her as a "city", the NEW Jerusalem is depicted as a city, as well. And WE, those of Christ's Body, make up that [beloved] City, no? What you must understand, luv, is that all of these things depict PEOPLE. Not WHEREs... but WHOs. For instance, the "temple". Although depicted antitypically as a "temple"... it is actually people. I am sure you've seen where I've shared JAH = Most Holy/Holy of Holies; Christ = Holy; Spiritual Israel (144,000 + GC from every nation, etc.) = Courtyard of Priests; Fleshly Israel = Courtyard of Israel; Rahab-Like People/Sheep Separated from Goats (do good to Christ's brothers) = Courtyard of Women; Others who receive life (vs. judgment) but are not Abraham's seed = Courtyard of Gentiles, etc.

EVERYTHING that was ONCE fleshly/physical, is NOW... through CHRIST... spirit/spiritual. The Ark (the New Covenant), the Woman (the Spirit Realm), the Temple (God's people), etc.

Quote:
So Islam is NOT BTG BUT it is PART of it?
Yes, that makes sense.


I don't think I stated that, luv. To be a part of BTG, one would have had to have been in union with CHRIST. Have belonged to/claimed a marriage to him. Again, no Moslem will make that claim. While the recognize Christ as a prophet, they do NOT recognize him as the Son of God OR as their "husbandly" owner. BTG is an "adulteress" in that she commits fornication AGAINST her husband... Christ.

Quote:
I have to be honest though, the description of the fall of Babylon is so vivid that it certainly seems to imply a city/state rather than an abstract thing.


Before we look at that, does not the depiction of the New Jerusalem at Revelation 21-22 seem to imply a city/state, as well? Even with roads and gates, a temple, etc.? Yet, "she" is not a physical city/state but a city/state made up of PEOPLE. As is BTG. But let's look at the account of BTG:

Quote:
Babylon Is Fallen
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. 2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.


What demons dwell in Iran/Iraq, dear one, more than in any other place on the earth? I don't know much about Iraq but I work with people from Iran, have worked with people from Iran... and from speaking with them the Iran THEY know isn't much different from the US I know. One just told me last week that, save the false media hype, the people of Iran are just like people everywhere else and just want the same things.

But now let's look at "christianity," and those who CLAIM to belong to/be in union with/married to Christ. Let's look at the misleading, the fleecing, the Inquisition, the Conquest, the taking of the New World, the conversion of American, Asian, African and other natives... and the methods. The crimes against other cultures, other races, other genders, other religions, other classes... all "in the name of God." By folks who, again, claim to be JOINED to God/Christ. Where did Christ do all of these things? Where did he direct the doing of any of them? Where did he sanction any one of them? How about the [hidden] pedophilia? Rape of women? Killing of innocent? Where is Christ in any of that?

Are not those things the works of DEMONS? They are, and so "she"... BTG... those who CLAIM to belong to Christ, in union with him... yet, agree to and do these things with the help of the kings of the world... who give them the AUTHORITY to do it AND use their military might to carry such out... in turn for being "sanctified" (i.e., "blessed by God", as the religious leaders lyingly corroborate) so as to hold office, become rulers/leaders, etc., SHE has indeed because a dwelling place for demons! A prison/haunt for every unclean spirit and hated flying thing!

Now, I realize Iran is villifying Israel, but vice versa, from what I can see. And at one time, the US villified Japan and Vietnam and the Soviet Union... and vice versa. And before that, the Anglo world had a HUGE problem with the Jewish world/culture. Are these "demons" any different? Under Hitler, Germany attempted to exterminate a large number of Jews... and in fact DID exterminate millions. Why is Iran/Iraq more "demonized" than Germany? And did Germany not "fall" for quite a time after its crimes? Why "see" Iran/Iraq in this when neither have done NOTHING against "Israel" to the extent German once did?

Quote:
3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”


SURELY, you can "see" religion in this depiction... far, far more than Iran/Iraq. How has the world drank the wine of the "passion of her immorality" of these two nations? In what way? And how have the merchants of the earth become rich by the wealth of her sensuality? Iran/Iraq have not seduced the world; the world wants what THEY have: oil. At a rock bottom price. And is willing to take it from them, even if it calls for war.

But religion... and particularly the part called "christianity/christendom", has been seducing the world from day one. False prophets, corrupt priests, false "anointed", etc. Whe world has not only drank... but become DRUNK... on the wine of the passion of religion's immorality. And most particularly, "christianity's" immorality. As I set forth some of those acts, above. How have the kings of the earth committed acts of adultery with Iran/Iraq, though? Do not those world governments that stand with Israel stand AGAINST (the governments of) Iran/Iraq today? How then, can they be in bed together?

Quote:
4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.


This is most telling: who, of God's people, are/would this apply to? Are we to think that christians in Iran/Iraq are to get out of those countries so as not the share in the "sins" (which are?) of those nations? But then, again, what of Germany? The U.S.? England? And their sins? How about Israel's (Jews) against Christians of the 1st century? Are they now clean from those acts?

BUT, if BTG was RELIGION... and particularly "christianity" (and Jews, because these claim to be God's people, at least the God whose revelation John SAW, given to him by Christ and presented by our Lord's angel)... then we can see "what" we are to get out OF, what "city" we are to flee FROM. Because there is a "city" we are to flee TO, is there not? "Zion", the NEW Jerusalem?

Quote:
6 Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. 7 To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning;


And take a look at Iran/Iraq and tell me where is the glorification and sensuous living? Most of the people are strict religionists, adhering tightly to out dated religious traditions, rituals, thinking, and expression. On the other hand, how about religion, and particularly "christianity"? Has that entity glorified itself? Does it live sensuously (and that has less to do with sense... than with SENSES: i.e., by SIGHT, versus by FAITH)?

And what are Iran's/Iraq's deeds? How about when compared to "christianity's" deeds? Again, the Inquisition, various Conquests, taking of the New World, the American slave trade, it's part in the Holocaust... and more.

Quote:
for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’


THIS, luv! How does Iran/Iraq say this? I can tell you how "christianity" does: by saying they are married to the KING... Christ... that he has NOT left them but is with them, when he is NOT... and that he is NOT dead (to them)... when he IS. Technically AND literally. Sure, they SAY he rose from the dead, but HAS he for them? If so, then why can't/doesn't he SPEAK to them? Why don't they know HIS voice? Why do they persecute those who say he DOES speak (to them and EVERYONE who belongs to him)... and ridicule/try to silence/kill such ones? Iran/Iraq hasn't done anything to me. But whoo-whee, let me approach one our world's great religious leaders with ANY of what I've shared with you dear ones... and you with us... and what do you think the outcome would be? What do you think the chances of even HAVING a conversation would be? Would any of them welcome any of us as brothers? Fellow servants? Would they LISTEN?

But we are not sent to Iran/Iraq, are we? To a people whose tongue we don't know and whose words are unintelligible. Because they speak of "Allah" and "Mohammed" and the Quran. "Christians," however, claim to know the same God and follow the same Christ as we. Yet, what, of the things we share, would be familiar to them? Sure, a few of those among them would get it... and then do what? COME OUT. Would ANY religious LEADER of "christianity" do so, however?

They, however, style themselves a queen, the bride of Christ, the King... and not a widow. Because they believe their "husband" is alive to them. But Christ is DEAD to them, and thus they ARE a widow. And they will see mourning... those who remain "in" her, rather than turning AROUND and coming to be "in" Christ. By means of being in HIS "city" - the NEW Jerusalem.

Quote:
8 For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.


And so, it isn't against Iran/Iraq that the plagues will come, that pestilence, mourning, and famine will occur. It is against the adulterous religions of christianity that it will come. And we can see it already occurring. Already people are leaving. Initially, because they'd grown tired of the lies, hypocrisy, dishonesty, and corruption. Now... because of the filthy immorality. Of priests, elders, pastors, and even higher. And guess where some are GOING: Islam. Sadly. They are coming out this harlotous city, but only to flee to yet another (wrong) city.

Eventually, though, the kings of the earth who LOVED that harlot... who allowed her even the blood of the holy ones... will turn on her. And we can see THAT occurring, too. It started with taxation after the Jimmy Swaggert case. No longer can they make a killing profit by selling literature, artifacts, and other paraphernalia without paying taxes. They either pay taxes... or they must give it away free. Can't make any money doing that, though. Then... the sex scandals... thousands upon thousands of lives affected by that... and the millions being paid out for that. First, in Boston with the RCC, and then elsewhere for them. Then the LDS and similar issues there, with an actual criminal arrest. Now, the WTBTS, in the US, Australia, Europe...

And it's going to get worse. Because people are WAKING up to the crimes of religion, and not just Islamic jihad. They are waking up to "christian" corruption and great immorality, including but not necessarily limited to pedophilia. And they are eventually going to call for her end because of it. And even though they won't WANT to do it... because of their "relationships" with her... their governments will oblige and do what their people call for... and bring her to her end. JAH Himself is going to put it into the hearts of those kings to turn on her and do it.

And what will be their response, those kings? You quoted it:

Quote:
Lament for Babylon
9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’


And what of the merchants who have gained THEIR wealth by means of her? And make no mistake: they do exist:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/rel ... ight_N.htm

Here is how THEY respond:

Quote:
11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more— 12 cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble, 13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives. 14 The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, 16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls; 17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’


How would these... WHY would these... lament to such a degree over the demise of Iraq/Iran? If anything, the toppling of these two would bring even more wealth to these merchants, through oil and other resources they hold. But BTG's fall is something they are ASTONISHED over, lament.

However, another group is to REJOICE over her demise: those whose blood she DRANK:

Quote:
20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”


When, though, did Iran/Iraq drink the blood of the holy ones?? Of those who bore witness to JAHESHUA? Iran's issues is with Jews. When did/do Jews bear witness to Christ?? True, there are some Messianic Jews who claim a union with Christ. But what has Iran to do with them?? Is it not the Zionist Jews they deem enemies?

This final part, however, is most telling, particularly the part I've bolded and underlined:

Quote:
21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22 And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived[u] by your sorcery. 24 And [u]in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”


No, I don't think you can apply this depiction and description to Iran/Iraq, dear one. Even though they were once called "Babylon." THAT Babylon was destroyed... but that one was physical. THIS one will be destroyed, too. She, however, is spiritual. An antitype and metaphor for the people who CLAIM to belong to/be married to/in union with Christ... and so his "bride" and thus a queen... but are in fact adulterous harlots who fornicate with the kings of the physical realm so as to be rich and make them rich... EVEN at the cost of the blood of the holy ones.

"She" started with the Jews, who WERE in a covenant and thus marriage with God... but who fornicated with the kings of the nations around THEM... "Oholah" and "Oholibah"... and she "grew" to those "christians" who CLAIM to be in a covenant with and thus marriage to CHRIST... but who commit the same dang fornication... with the kings of the nations around THEM... rather than staying true to the ONE and [supposedly, to hear them tell it] ONLY husband and owner... and so the ONLY One whose Law is to be obeyed: JAHESHUA, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit. He the ONLY Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH, chosen specifically AS Israel's husband and they as his Bride.

This does not manifest in Iran/Iraq, dear, dear brother. I hope you can "see" that.

As always, peace to you and to your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:35 am 
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Hi Shel,
You keep saying Iran/Iraq but I am speak of Islam, not just two states.
Yes, Christendom ( for lack of a better word) has much to answer for with things like the inquisition and the later crusades ( the first one, maybe two were justifiable to stop the islamic expansion) and the stupid period of forceful conversions ( though all these pale in number to the deaths and persecution caused by Islam and the Atheist regimes of the 20th century, China alone accounts for over 10 million deaths).

Some view Jerusalem as the "great harlot":
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rev1718.htm

False religion has much to answer for of course.

You keep mentioning BTG as an adulteress but while the greek work CAN mean one that practises unlawful sexual intercourse, it typically means whore/harlot.
Is there a particular reason you favour the adulteress? translation?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:23 pm 
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Hi Shel,
You keep saying Iran/Iraq but I am speak of Islam, not just two states.


Sorry, dear P (peace to you!). I focused on and asked as to this (see bolding and underlining) from your OP:

Quote:
That said, and as we know that prophecies can be far reaching and not just apply to the near-future, one person pointed out that Babylon can mean the Babylon of today and by that the Islamic States that, well, are where Babylon used to be.
Iran and Iraq in particular in terms of geography.


Yes, Christendom ( for lack of a better word) has much to answer for with things like the inquisition and the later crusades ( the first one, maybe two were justifiable to stop the islamic expansion) and the stupid period of forceful conversions ( though all these pale in number to the deaths and persecution caused by Islam and the Atheist regimes of the 20th century, China alone accounts for over 10 million deaths).

This isn't about numbers, dear one. Babylon is responsible for the blood of the holy ones, and specifically those who bore witness to our dear Lord:

"... the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to [Jesus]." Revelation 17:6

Islam isn't/doesn't kill christians BECAUSE they're christians, BECAUSE they bear witness to Christ. THAT crime belongs to the so-called "Christians". Ancient christians (Abel, Moses, etc.) aside, the blood of modern (i.e., common era) christians (i.e., those who are in an true union with Christ by means of holy spirit)... has been the "drink" first of Jerusalem (starting with John the Baptizer, whose head was severed by Herod, governor of Jerusalem), then by Rome (Christ, then the Apostles), and then what came out of Rome (the RCC)... and then what has come out of that: all other so-called "christian" religions. Neither you nor I could go the leader of ANY modern "christian" religion and share what we have been given... and not risk our lives, OUR blood.

Islam would not have a problem. Indeed, they would merely laugh at us (unless, of course, we condemned their religion or their Prophet, Mohammed). So-called "christians", however... and Jews... would want our heads. Christians more so, because they claim to belong to Christ and our message would say, "No, you don't. You CAN... but you don't." (Non-Messianic) Jews would have a problem because they don't even recognize Christ AS MischaJah.

Jews, however, would dismiss us because, well, they believe they are Jews by blood and since we can't prove... by blood... that they are NOT, our message is irrelevant. "Christians", on the other hand, are of the ilk that all one needs to do is SAY they "believe in Jesus," and that makes them a christian and who is anyone to say they aren't, who are we to "judge." They don't understand what it is to BE a "christian" (an anointing by holy spirit), or, if they claim such an anointing, that they should be able to PROVE it, TANGIBLY, in DEED (as manifested by one or more of the GIFTS of the spirit, which is the purpose OF such gifts)... or what faith truly IS (i.e., not just "believing" but DEMONSTRATING that belief).

And one of the major ways to demonstrate that faith, belief, anointing, etc., is to get OUT of Babylon the Great... and quit TOUCHING that "unclean" thing.

Which is why I share what I do below as to why the word "adulteress" is accurate.

Quote:
Some view Jerusalem as the "great harlot":
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rev1718.htm


Jerusalem (and the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benjamin) IS a harlot: she is "Oholibah." And her sister, Bethel aka Samaria (and the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel for which she stood), is a harlot, too: "Oholah." Ezekiel 23:4, 5, 44

But that was under the OLD Law. These were harlots due to their fornicative relationships in violation of the OLD Law. "Babylon the Great" is the Great Harlot and Mother of the Harlots due to her fornication as to the NEW Law. As are her (many, many) daughters.

Quote:
False religion has much to answer for of course.


Indeed.

Quote:
You keep mentioning BTG as an adulteress but while the greek work CAN mean one that practises unlawful sexual intercourse, it typically means whore/harlot.
Is there a particular reason you favour the adulteress? translation?


Yes. Because an adulteress IS a whore/harlot, luv. There was no law against prostitution, dear one. Hence, there were even prostitutes in the temple. An UNMARRIED woman is not necessarily a whore/harlot just because she sleeps with a man. If she isn't married, she doesn't BELONG to another man so as to COMMIT adultery. While selling her body for sex is pornea, pornea was not necessarily UNlawful. If it was, then the temple prostitutes would have been unlawful and the temple profaned by their presence. It wasn't, though. Also, concubinage would have been unlawful... and it wasn't.

It was, however, UNlawful for a MARRIED woman (and by married, I mean promised, engaged, and/or literally joined/bound by VOW to a man... or a concubine, but one a man considered to BE his wife, even if not a primary wife) to have relations with another man.

But the fact that BTG "committed fornication with the kings of the earth" doesn't necessarily make her an adulteress. What makes her an adulteress is that she CLAIMS to have HUSBAND. We can know this because:

In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit enthroned as queen.
I am not a widow;
I will never mourn.’


What does this mean? It means in her heart SHE believes her HUSBAND... LIVES. Hence, she is not a WIDOW. AND she believes that "he" will NEVER DIE. AND... he is a KING (because she believes, in HER heart, that she sits enthroned as QUEEN. Only ONE fits this definition, however: husband, living, never dying, a king... and able to enthrone HER: Christ.

That she boasts these things in her HEART, however, means that SHE believes them. Yet, they are NOT true. They are a LIE. But they are another contrast to Sarah and Hagar: Sarah was the TRUE and FREE wife of Abraham... but Hagar tried to take that position by means of trying to get HER son to be the heir. She knew Abraham loved Ishmael and could not imagine that some benefit would come to HER, as a result. She was wrong. Although she tried to usurp Sarah's position, she was cast out.

The TRUE "Queen" is the NEW Jerusalem, those who make up the BODY of Christ, he being the HEAD. Together they are ONE, as a man and his TRUE wife are one. They DO sit enthroned... by their husband, Christ, who is ALIVE, NOT dead (and so, she, the New Jerusalem, is the one who TRULY is not a widow!). And her husband will NEVER die and so SHE will NEVER be a widow.

Do you see? I truly hope so. If not, you CAN. First, you must stop listening to what people... "some"... "they"... etc., tell you these things mean and turn your gaze, instead, to the One who can tell you the TRUTH... because he IS the Truth. He will not just open the scriptures to you, including the Revelation, as he is the only one who can do so, but lead you into ALL truth. As to THIS world, HIS world, worlds/eras that have long past, and those yet to come. Maybe not all at once. Maybe not in a day or even a year... but in HIS time, based on when YOU can bear [what] it [is he tells you].

You just have to turn to him, keep your gaze on him, not look to the right or to the left, not put your trust in earthling man or in nobles, not lean upon your OWN understanding, not want/try to be "right," not take offense when others don't get/want/hear/accept/receive it, realize it is not about YOU but about [glorifying HIM, as the One sent BY God to tell/show us]... and just be a servant. Take the lowly seat and serve him, even if it IS unpopular, and/or seems difficult, dangerous, even life-threatening. Just do it... and have FAITH that he will NOT let you suffer beyond what you can BEAR.

Some of us can bear prison. Some of us cannot. Some of us can bear death. Some of cannot. Some of us can bear ridicule. Some of us cannot. To whom much is given, much is expected. If you can only bear a little, you will only receive a little. To the extent you sow... you reap. To the extent you "spend" your minas/talents, you gain more... to ALSO spend.

One doesn't receive the reward THEN do the work. One does the WORK... FIRST. THEN one receives, according to one's works. I am not speaking about life. All who belong to Christ receive the same reward in that sense. No matter how much work, no matter how long one works. But when it comes to increasing the GIFTS given to us NOW, one is rewarded based on the extent to which one uses one's gifts. The one who BURIES his/her gift(s) will eventually have them rescinded.

As with most things that require effort, then, you get what you give. Just as you have to EXERCISE muscles for them to INCREASE (in size and strength), we have to EXERCISE our FAITH... in order for THAT to increase. In size... AND in strength.

Dear, dear P., I know you're very learned regarding things "religious." Far, far more than I. I would exhort you, though, to put more faith in our dear Lord, and him alone, than in what you learn from others, including me, your sister and fellow servant. I have never lied to you, but I am mere flesh and blood just as you are. The most important and truthful truth I can ever give you, then, is to go directly to Christ and ask HIM. Ask HIM as to "who" BTG is. As to what role Islam plays, if any, in relation to her. Why she is an adulteress, as much as a whore and harlot. And what, if anything, do the governments of THIS world have to do with ANYTHING... if they have anything to do at all. Because Paul shared that they don't, not really.

At Ephesians 6:10-12 he is recorded to have stated:

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

This verse is misrendered/mistransliterated, however. Because what he MEANT was that our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the power of the PRINCIPLE RULER of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms that than one CONTROLS. That is why Paul when on to state:

"Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist (remember the "girdle/belt/sash" our dear Lord himself wears? Revelation 1:13; Daniel 10:5), with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the good news of [b]peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which [Spirit] is the Word of God." Hebrews 4:12; Revelation 19:13-16 And pray through the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people."

None of these things has ANY affect against human/worldly governments, dear one. But it has GREAT effect as to those who CONTROL such governments. Because it calls upon God and Christ to intervene against these SPIRIT forces FOR us. In turn, the workings of the spirit forces, manifested THROUGH human forces, has no hold on us and authority over us. Why? Because:

"ALL authority has been given ME, in heaven AND on earth," says our dear, dear Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH), JAH who is the MOST HOLY One of Israel and One who breathes armies of spirits (lives) into existence.

I hope this helps, truly. As always, the greatest of love and peace to you... and to you dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:10 pm 
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Hi Shel,
Sorry I have been away for a bit...

This part here concerns me:
Quote:
Islam isn't/doesn't kill christians BECAUSE they're christians, BECAUSE they bear witness to Christ.

Yes, yes they have and yes they do, currently.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... -the-globe

That aside,
Yes, Our Adversary has dug his "claws" into organized religion and in it he has found a place for his allies to grow and fester and contaminate the body of Christ ( or at least try to).
It is through that that he will worshipped, through organized religion that he will lead people astray, not with hate but with great works of miracles.
He will pass off his hate as love and his killing of the body of Christ as a miracle of "rebirth".
He will heal evil and people will love him for it.
He will do great works (the greatest being the acceptance of all that is wrong as good, all that is evil as good, all that is bad as good) and people will call him "Christ".

And I believe that he will use Islam to help him in this also, not just organized religion.
I have seen this, seen the throne of God being filled with the bodies of those that will not renounce Our Lord.

You are right Shelby, words have power and just because I view religion as simply a term, it doesn't mean others don't view it as MORE and I have to be better about this.

Too many times I have underestimated our adversary, forgetting that he actually IS, forgetting that he will disguise himself as light" and "love" and will lead even the elect astray.

Thanks for reminding me :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:07 pm 
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Quote:
This part here concerns me:

Quote:
Islam isn't/doesn't kill christians BECAUSE they're christians, BECAUSE they bear witness to Christ.


Yes, yes they have and yes they do, currently.


You misunderstand me, dear brother (peace to you, luv!). I didn't mean those "christians" who are part of the harlot(s) that, for millenia, have gone around the world persecuting and killing others because such others WEREN'T "christians." Y'know, those that bear witness to "Jesus", yet participated in (or now revere the filthy institutions that participated in) Inquisitions, Conquests, conversion massacres, inhumane slavery, etc. That's really just a belated (but very sad) kind of retribution.

They do kill such "christians" because they think such are of the "devil" because of what "christianity" (which exists because of such "christians") has done to THEM... and many, many others. And if we're honest, what HAS been done to them... and many, many others... BY such "christians"... IS demonic. Absolutely from the Devil. No doubt whatsoever.

Even so, I was talking about christians who are such NOT because they ascribe to some religion or belong to some religious institution but by means of holy spirit and are, therefore, actual members of the Body of Christ. (Radical) Muslims don't kill those christians just because they are members of the Body of Christ or because such bear witness to Christ.

I hope that is a little clearer - LOL!

Peace to you and to your dear household!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:19 pm 
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Ah, I see what you mean.
Well...I don't think that killing people because of what a very small and selective few have done is really acceptable.
No Christian today has any responsibility for the crusades, just like no muslim today has any responsibility for the past Islamic expansion ( the current one is a different story).
I mean, if we follow that line of thought then American's would be getting killed when visiting Vietnam for all those atrocities committed during the war, Germans would have been exterminated from Europe because of WW2 and the Japanese would not exist in the US.

It seems you are saying that the Christians that have been persecuted and killed by Muslim extremists were not part of the body of Christ, or am I reading you wrong?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:19 pm 
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I don't think that killing people because of what a very small and selective few have done is really acceptable.


Nor do I, luv (peace!), at least not for [true] christians. Because it's returning evil FOR evil. Two wrongs don't make a right... ever. BUT, I mean, how many "christians" were chomping at the bit to go to war against their [perceived] "enemies"... after 911? SHOULDN'T have been a single person claiming to be "christian" involved in that. Or in any other human war, for that matter. BUT, well...

Quote:
No Christian today has any responsibility for the crusades, just like no muslim today has any responsibility for the past Islamic expansion ( the current one is a different story).


I agree. But what of the stuff "christians" are tromping about doing around the world TODAY? And please... please... don't think they're doing nothing. That would be folly. I mean, just the OIL that the "christian" (and atheist) world relies on. What of diamonds... and other valuable NATURAL resources that come from the NON-christian world? Thing is, luv, there's no difference... in their eyes. That time has passed means nothing... when you live in a part of the world where time doesn't move very fast.

Time FLIES, though, in the western world. It does... because of that whole "early bird gets the worm" greed thing perpetuated IN the western world. Everyone vying to be faster, better... first... Why? The money, power, influence, notoriety. What should such mean to a christian, though? Yet, who's at the head of the pack? And because of this (and because of the desire to ignore accountability), the western (and predominantly "christian") world tends to (conveniently) "forget" a lot of history... Its OWN history, particularly the BAD parts... AND so also forget a LOT of TRUTH.

For instance, have you ever read the 1947 essay by King Abdullah of Jordan? If not, you should - I believe you will find it quite interesting... and it's not even 100 years old:

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

What were "christians" about THERE?

Quote:
I mean, if we follow that line of thought then American's would be getting killed when visiting Vietnam for all those atrocities committed during the war, Germans would have been exterminated from Europe because of WW2 and the Japanese would not exist in the US.


If we follow that line of thought Americans SHOULD be getting killed when visiting (South) Vietnam (cause they still just might be killed in North 'Nam), yes. But Americans are not being killed NOT because the line of thought is wrong... but because some NON-"christians"... indeed Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Atheists... and yes, Muslims... aren't SO filled with hate that they DO kill Americans. That they hold individual Americans responsible for the poor actions of their leaders. Unlike Americans, obviously. There is a HUGE difference, dear one. Bombs don't differentiate between soldiers and civilians, though, luv.

But then, look at [the aftermath of] 911: many Americans are STILL spitting blood over that one. Would kill a Muslim... ANY Muslim... EVEN if such was an AMERICAN and living and working PRODUCTIVELY in THIS country at the TIME of 911. EVEN if such were a child. They don't care - it's a Muslim. And so must die. And yes, even some "christians" feel this way. Don't believe me? Maybe take your next vacation somewhere in the American "heartland"... or perhaps the Deep South.

[Funny... an American brought down the Murrah building in Oklahoma City. When's the last time you heard anything about THAT... or saw folks going after any blonde-haired, blue-eyed ex Marines... sending THEM to Gitmo... because they "look the part"? I dare say... you haven't. Why IS that, though? I digress.]

Can I rest my case, yet? LOLOL!

Quote:
It seems you are saying that the Christians that have been persecuted and killed by Muslim extremists were not part of the body of Christ, or am I reading you wrong?


Well, let me ask you and you tell me, luv: what is a christian? What makes one a christian? Not what do human religious organizations/dictionaries define as christians. More importantly, what did CHRIST mean as to those who would be of his Body? What does the word TRULY mean? I believe we've had this discussion before - I know I've posted on it more than once. I'll leave it to you to look for those posts.

Peace you, my dear, dear brother... and thank you for your kind patience with me during our discussions - LOLOL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:46 am 
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Sorry Shel, we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
But to answer your question about who/what is a Christian, I think Paul stated it best:

9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation.

And:

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

A Christian is a person that believes and proclaims that Jesus is Lord, that He is resurrected because only by His Holy Spirit can we BELIEVE AND PROCLAIM such.
and if we have the HS in Us, we are anointed by Him and are part of the Body of Christ.

And:
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,


In short, all those that believe and proclaim Christ as Lord and Saviour, that He has risen and will come again, Can ONLY do so by the Holy Spirit and that means they are anointed by the HS which means they are part of the body of Christ and Our Lord has said as much to me when I needed it to be as clear as possible.

So...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:49 am 
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There is one thing we need to remember and that is many have done horrific things in the name of God CONTRARY to Gospel, bible and revelation BUT in ISlam, they are told in their holy writings that is is correct to FORCEFULLY convert and it is OK to kill the infidel is he/she does not convert.

There is a big difference there.


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