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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:45 am 
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First, you have to get out of the JW mindset that there were other Triune Gods and that somehow the Christian view of the Trinity is a "borrowing" of sorts from them.
That is simply not correct.

I did not get that from the WTBTS, dear P (peace to you, luv!). I received it from my Lord... and it is corroborated by history. There is a PLETHORA of triune gods... most preceding our dear Lord, dear one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity

That the current "christian" belief has its roots in GREEK beliefs, is due to "polydeism":

Quote:
Polydeism (from Greek πολύς ( 'poly' ), meaning 'many', and Latin deus meaning God) is a polytheistic form of Deism encompassing the belief that the universe was the collective creation of multiple Gods, each of whom created a piece of the universe and then ceased to interact with the universe. This concept addresses an apparent contradiction in Deism – that a monotheistic God created the universe, but now expresses no apparent interest in it – by supposing that if the universe is the construct of many gods, none of them would have an interest in the universe as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydeism


But you DON'T have to take my word for this, dear, dear brother. The information is OUT there. One can ask (Christ), of course... but not only is he a resource to knowing the truth about this development, man's own history is a resource as well.

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If we are to criticize the Trinity doctrine then we must criticize what it IS, not what we THING it is.


I totally understand.

Quote:
God being ONE does NOT go against the Triune Nature of God.


Dear one, that is the VERY reason He made the statement TO Israel: Abraham, the forefather of Israel... CAME FROM A LAND (the "East")... where "God" WAS a triune entity!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti

Please... research Hinduism... Vedas/Vedic... and Rigveda.

Then, they were enslaved for more than 400 years in Egypt... which ALSO revered a triune god. Please, research Osiris, Isis, and Horus!

And so JAH had to TELL them... when they were in the wilderness... that HE was ONE! But they didn't LISTEN! Nope. They kept taking on the gods of the nations, including the triune god of Babylon (which originated in the days of Nimrod, an OPPOSER of JAH): Tammuz (the "son"), Nimrod (the "father"), and Semiramis (the "dove").

THEN... they took on the "Old Persian" triune god, "Ahura Mazda":

Quote:
Ahura Mazda (/əhˌʊrəmˈæzdə/;[1]), (also known as Athura Mazda, Athuramazda, Ohrmazd, Ahuramazda, Hourmazd, Hormazd, Hurmuz, and Azzandara) is the Avestan name for a divinity of the Old Iranian religion who was proclaimed the uncreated God by Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism. Ahura Mazda is described as the highest deity of worship in Zoroastrianism, along with being the first and most frequently invoked deity in the Yasna. The word Ahura means light and Mazda means wisdom. Thus Ahura Mazda is the lord of light and wisdom. Ahura Mazda is the creator and upholder of Arta (truth). Ahura Mazda is an omniscient and omnipotent god, who created a being called Angra Mainyu, the "evil spirit" who as the creator of evil will be destroyed according to the frashokereti (the destruction of evil).

Ahura Mazda first appeared in the Achaemenid period (c. 550 – 330 BCE) under Darius I's Behistun Inscription. Until Artaxerxes II (405-04 to 359-58 BCE), Ahura Mazda was worshiped and invoked alone. With Artaxerxes II, Ahura Mazda was invoked in a triad, with Mithra and Apam Napat. In the Achaemenid period, there are no representations of Ahura Mazda other than the custom for every emperor to have an empty chariot drawn by white horses, to invite Ahura Mazda to accompany the Persian army on battles. Images of Ahura Mazda began in the Parthian period, but were stopped and replaced with stone carved figures in the Sassanid period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda
[/quote]

And after THAT... the trinue god of the GREEK empire - Zeus, Athena, and Apollo!

I am not alone in this understanding, though, dear one. There is MUCH information out there on this topic... the triune gods of the nations. This article (author unknown), includes some pretty good research might even be helpful to you:

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/UnknownAuthor.htm

Quote:
I am ONE, yet I am also Body, Mind, Soul/spirit.


Yes, dear one. But even in body, mind, and soul/spirit... you are Paul. Not Paul/Shel. Or Paul/Shel/Tammy. HOWEVER, because of LOVE... and because of BLOOD... and because of BREATH... and because of SEED... you are Paul/your wife. Or Paul/your child. And your wife is wife/Paul. Or wife (mother)/child. But you are not Paul/wife/child.

Quote:
The "O Shema" prayer isn't a comment on God's nature, but His supremacy as the One and Only Creator God.


It is both, dear one, and intended more as to the first... because He KNEW Israel would, again, follow the gods of the nations. JUST like our dear Lord KNEW Peter would deny him; yet, he gave Peter an opportunity NOT to do so. Same thing as to Israel... and serving others gods. That is the reason why the FIRST 'commandment' WAS:

“You shall have no other gods BESIDES/other than... me." Exodus 20:3

Because, He KNEW them! Better than they knew themselves! As Christ knew PETER... BETTER than Peter knew himself!

I do understand what you wrote here about THE HS and the Spirit, you mentioned that before.
While I don't agree with the materialistic and graphic view of the Spirit being "blood, breathe, semen" when it what it is is simply the Spiritual Essence of God, I do see what you are trying to convey.

Then that's all that matters, dear one: that you understand what I am conveying. The rest... whether you can actually RECEIVE what I shared, what was given ME by the Spirit that is Christ... up to Christ. Between you and him, dear one. I'm just a little 'ol rock... cryin' out. That's it and that's all.

I wish you TRUE peace, dear P... as our dear Lord gives it! In your life... and as to these things. Truly.

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:35 am 
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The issue Shel is that the Trinity does NOT state 3 Gods.
It states 1 GOD, that is a spiritual perfect union of three persons.
No such being exists outside of Christian theology.

I am critical of the Trinity doctrine on many things BUT that it means worshiping 3 gods is onto one of them because it doesn't state that.

The trinity is, quite simply, a doctrine that states that Father, Son and HS share the same nature and as such all are God and because they are a perfect union, they are ONE God.

While analogies are hard to come by, we can see an example ( just to picture 3 separate persons in ONE being) in the 3 heads dog Cerebrus.
One being with 3 distinct persons/personalities.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:39 am 
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Quote:
The issue Shel is that the Trinity does NOT state 3 Gods.
It states 1 GOD, that is a spiritual perfect union of three persons.
No such being exists outside of Christian theology.


Perhaps, dear P (mornin' and peace to you!). But I didn't share what I did to show that there was a SAME or similar being revered by the nations. I shared it to show were the erroneous belief of the "christian" trinity DERIVED from. That "christians" changed the tri-unity to suit THEIR needs ("1 GOD... a spiritual perfect union of three persons" versus three separate gods in unity... pray tell, though, what is the DIFFERENCE??)... doesn't negate the ORIGIN of believing in a 3-god "tri-unity"... which is what the word "trinity" derives from.

So, the current "trinity" evolved. I only shared its origin... and WHY JAH tried to make it known to Israel that He was ONE... and not "part" of THREE. Which He was (one)... until the Son. And THEN... there were TWO. Not three.

That's all, luv, and I hope that helps clarify.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:22 am 
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Wow after reading this thread I can see why The Trinity belief is confusing.

What I see is that it is confusing because of translation and language. Everything is a mystery to solve with religious beliefs?? Every religion says they have it right.

OKay, my question is, how does believing the Trinity or Not believing the Trinity change how we worship God??


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:15 am 
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I can only answer for myself, dear Zoe (mornin' and peace to you, dear sister!)... and my personal answer would be summed up in Christ's own words, as spoken to the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well:

“Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:21-24

When he said this to her, the woman responded she knew "Messiah is coming” and that when he came he would tell them all things. My dear Lord then told her, “I who speak to you am He.”

It is the same with me: my dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH), revealed to ME that there is not three, but two - the Father and the Son - and that the "third person" everyone refers to as a separate being is he himself. Although I believed him, he also showed me 2 Corinthians 3:17, where Paul wrote:

"The Lord is the Spirit."

For ME, since the Father is looking for those who worship Him in spirit... and TRUTH... and it was His Son, Who IS the Truth (John 14:6) who revealed to me the truth as to this "third person", that such one doesn't exist but that HE is the "Holy" Spirit, glorified by the Father... it matters. It matters... because the teaching of a third person is false - a lie - and so NOT truth. I cannot worship God IN truth... if I believe a lie ABOUT the Father (and the Son).

Some might say "it doesn't matter." Perhaps not. But since our Adversary is the "father" (begetter) of the lie... then I would rather not touch ANY part of an "unclean thing," than be concerned as to what others think about me for standing "fast" with the Truth... and what HE says is true.

I hope that helps.

As always, peace to you!

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:32 am 
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Zoe wrote:
Wow after reading this thread I can see why The Trinity belief is confusing.

What I see is that it is confusing because of translation and language. Everything is a mystery to solve with religious beliefs?? Every religion says they have it right.

OKay, my question is, how does believing the Trinity or Not believing the Trinity change how we worship God??



Mornin Zoe and peace sister,

I can say for me personally ( coming from the WT and never knowing of the trinity) that it can seem to be confusing the same way the Watchtower teachings and dates can be. And that is what their intention is. Control! You just trust them!

What I personally have come to understand that I see regards the trinity and those who believe in it is, that the world in general says they truly believe in God, yet a nameLESS God, believe in "a Jesus" rendering HIM nameLESS by not honoring him enough to use his True NAME and identity and not giving him the due reverence he has been given as The Glorified Holy Spirit. Instead believing in a nameLESS energy they can't reallly explain themselves.

One of the profound things I remember hearing from our Lord during my exit from the Watchtower is although I knew that the organization never taught a trinity, I was amazed at that time how much glory was withheld from our Lord and the DISRespect I had given him. I spent my whole life going straight to Jehovah/ Pharoah and bypassing Christ/ as the Joseph. Not truly understanding that everything written leads to Him.
And denying him by not partaking showed I did not truly understand that he was The Life and "All power and authority had truly been given him." That he was The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Word of God, True freedom (and every other metaphor) and it was by means of him from the father that Holy Spirit is poured out upon us therefore dwelling in us because he IS that Spirit.

What a privilege and UNdeserved kindness this was for me to learn. I had never thought our Lord to be this! So although not believing in 3, I knew Jehovahs Witnesses didn't truly believe and understand even 2.

Just some of what I have come to appreciate and am truly grateful for,
Love your sister servant and slave of Christ, Kim


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Dear Shelby and Kim, your comments helped me a LOT!!! I totally get it now. I Will comment and read all this again tomorrow. I have energy in the morning but by 2 PM I am wiped out usually and today more so than usual as I did too much today, physically and mentally.
Thanks so much for helping me understand.

I feel strange saying Peace to you, its not natural for me. Why do you say that every time you end your post? Is it like saying Shalom. I like the word Shalom but not sure if that is appropriate here.
I am not being critical at all, just wondering and learning.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Peace to you all!

To add from me as well:

It matters because truth matters. And the trinity is not true.


Not only that, but isn't putting a "third person" into the mix taking glory from Christ (and from God)? Because it teaches people to turn to something other than Christ; it teaches that something other than Christ can be the Teacher and the mediator between man and God. And if we take our eyes off Christ (the Light), how can we see clearly?

Christ is the mediator between man and God. Christ is the Teacher. There is no one else for us to turn to; and Christ is the One God has told us to listen TO.




Peace to you and your households,
your sister and servant and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Peace to you, again, dear Zoe. The admonition is to offer a greeting of upon entering a home (vs. leaving it), but I tend to "overdo" a lot of stuff - LOLOL!

Matthew 10:12, 13
Luke 10:5, 6; 24:36
John 20:19
Romans 1:7
1 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 1:2
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Philippians 1:2
Colossians 1:2
1 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
Philemon 1:3
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 5:14
3 John 1:14
Revelation 1:4


I hope that helps and, again, peace to you!

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
It is the same with me: my dear Lord, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH), revealed to ME that there is not three, but two - the Father and the Son - and that the "third person" everyone refers to as a separate being is he himself. Although I believed him, he also showed me 2 Corinthians 3:17, where Paul wrote:

"The Lord is the Spirit."


Question: Since Jahesua is the Spirit, why did he refer to the spirit as something other than himself?

But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you. - John 14:26

When the helper comes that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which comes from the Father, that one will bear witness about me - John 15:26

For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you - John 16:7

I have been confused a long time on this one. Basically, Jaheshua is saying, "I have to go away so I can come to you." Huh?


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Thanks Shelby - Wow those were a lot of scriptures to check but that certainly answers my question. I never noticed all those Peace greetings before.

AGuest wrote:
Peace to you, again, dear Zoe. The admonition is to offer a greeting of upon entering a home (vs. leaving it), but I tend to "overdo" a lot of stuff - LOLOL!

Matthew 10:12, 13
Luke 10:5, 6; 24:36
John 20:19
Romans 1:7
1 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 1:2
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Philippians 1:2
Colossians 1:2
1 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
Philemon 1:3
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 5:14
3 John 1:14
Revelation 1:4


I hope that helps and, again, peace to you!

Your servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Those are just (some of) the NT verses, dear Zoe (peace to you, luv!). There's quite a bit more in the OT, but I didn't want to (further) overwhelm you - LOLOL!

Peace to you!


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:12 pm 
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I learn something new everyday, especially here LOL
So in Hebrew I thought the word peace is Shalom?? I like the Hebrew word/greeting better, but since I am not Hebrew I guess it's better to use the word Peace.??
Peace to you Shelby


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:31 am 
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john 1:1
one of my favourite memories
because it started a very zealous ministerial servant pioneer
on the path out of the cult

the MS was arguing the scripture with an elder
as the elder was adamant the Society interpreted correctly
until the MS asked me
because he knew i was really into studying technicalities
and i said only what one of our brochures said
which showed it actually went both ways
"a" god and "the" God
so the scripture itself had zero value in arguments

the car group went silent

_________________
"For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law . . . They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts" (Romans 2:14-15)


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:45 am 
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Thanks for that bit of info, dear Wheels... and peace to you!

Peace to you, as well, dear Zoe!


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