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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:18 pm 
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I guess we can start by viewing God as a "term" we use for the ONE species that is God, sure.
We know it isn't His name.


We know God is not His name, certainly.

God's name is Jahveh. (Yahweh to most, as you state below, but the pronunciation is the same)

So that God, Himself, has a name. One being. AS Christ also said about His Father... you are the ONLY True God.

The Son ALSO has a name... and it is not Jahveh. It is Jaheshua (you already know all the different pronunciations, etc). Two names... two beings.

The Holy Spirit is never named as a separate being.

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God is a term used to define the characteristics of the supreme creator being YHWH.


God is a title... and that title does define characteristics, yes.

Quote:
When we think "God", we think all power, all knowing, all seeing, all loving, in short a complete being of limitless power that is perfect and needs/wants nothing.
That is GOD.
Anything less is less so, is not God.


Maybe... maybe not. He certainly does want things. HE WANTS all men to come to repentance and life... but they will not all do so. He does not WANT anyone to perish, but some will do so.

Quote:
We can view God through a very small lens of comprehension.


We can, and many do.

But what we are told to do is to see God... by seeing Christ. Because Christ is the image of God. If Christ is the image of God... where is the Father in this? What role does he play?

(I'm not asking rhetorical questions... I am asking sincere ones. Because honestly, all I see are holes and contradictions and confusion in this trinity doctrine. It does not make sense... and it is not because I do not understand what people are saying. I do. But what they are saying contradicts itself)

Quote:
We can no more understand/fully comprehend God than a single cell amoeba can comprehend Us.
Nothing we say can explain God and no words will do justice.
But words is all we have.


But Christ can teach us. Christ can explain. Know Christ, know God. But we are looking to men when we are looking at the trinity doctrine, to understand God... and that is why we do know understand and do not know, and must relegate God to the realm of mystery.

Quote:
Thank Our Father for His Son, Our Lord, because in HIM ( Jaheshua) we can FINALLY glimpse God in OUR Terms, in a way we can understand.


I agree... thank our Father for His Son... but I don't think Christ's words are because he has allowed us to glimpse God... but to SEE and to KNOW God.

AS He also said... this is eternal life, that they may KNOW you, the Only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


Quote:
Passages that speak on ONE of them or TWO of them or all THREE are not statements of THEM, but reflections of what the writers were trying to express.


I think that depends. The Lord is the Spirit... sounds like a statement of them, based on what was revealed by the Spirit to Paul.

Quote:
You question is how can they speak of God and Son and mean the same thing, right?
Because, even to Trinitarians, God is synonyms with The Father.


I have a lot of questions regarding this doctrine, lol... but I'm not sure that is one of them. I think my question was more along the lines of how can they speak of them individually, as two separate beings... but that still mean that they are the same being?


Quote:
The Father was The God of the Son, yes, why wouldn't He be?
Same nature does NOT = same "authority" ( even though they did have).


Sorry. Even though they did have... what? (You didn't finish your sentence, or I misunderstand what you meant)

Quote:
Even If I had all the power of My father, all the authority, I would still view him, my father, as my superior, so for the Son of God, who was God, to view His Father as God is only natural.


Yes, I get that the trinity relegates the son, father, holy spirit as roles... but also as beings. It seems to change, depending upon what point or verse is being made.


I think I have also merged this and the other thread on some points... and it is confusing... because in one place you ask why CAN'T they be the same being, but in another place, as the trinity states, they are not the same being.

Like I said... VERY confusing, and contradictory.


Simple is:

God is the Father, Jahveh, the Most Holy One of Israel
Christ is the Son, Jaheshua, the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit)

Each has a title... God, Christ. Each is a person... Father, Son... with a name... Jahveh, Jaheshua.



Christ came FROM the Father, and received ALL authority and power. That verse states that He will be called... Mighty God.

May I ask if it makes sense to you that a Son who inherits all power and authority from his Father, would also inherit the titles that go with?



Peace,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:36 pm 
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Most know that I am NOT a fan of the Trinity Doctrine, simply because it is NOT inline with how we understand things in our culture.
For Hellenistic people the term person is Not how we understand it today.
God being ONE being BUT 3 persons makes very little sense to us because we tend to visualize a person as a stand-alone material being.
But God is NOT material, He is spirit and spirit can be ANYTHING it wants to be.

I am not a Trinitarian in the classical sense BUT I do think that it is closer to God's nature than any other doctrine we have, though still very far from being "correct".
It "answers" the issues of the "overlapping" roles of Father, Son and HS, their overlapping powers and responsibilities and so forth.
The other-centeredness of a "triune" being ( or even a biune being for that matter) also answers the issue of why God IS God.
Believing or not in the Trinity is irrelevant for salvation or even for belief in Christ of course.
BUT it is crucial to understand what it means when John and Paul ( and Isaiah) make the statement that Christ IS God.
All were monotheistic jews and for them to make that comment, speaks volumes.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:51 pm 
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There are many gods... and even we, the Body of Christ, will one day be gods (by means of the white robes... spirit bodies... that we will one day possess and occupy). "God" is the SPIRIT nature (versus "human/earthling", which is the physical nature)... and ALL spirit beings are of that same nature/substance. Some, way more than others... and JAH, the MOST (Holy). THAT is why the Adversary is called the "god" (or SPIRIT)... of THIS world.

We have gotten away from what the term, "god", truly means (beings of the divine and so spirit), however... because of the influence of the Greeks on the translation of the writings. THEIR gods were false (entities that didn't even exist but were the creation and construct of man's mind which they WORSHIPPED)... and so such was applied to ALL "gods." Today, many apply that to "gods" that are not the MOST Holy (JAH of Armies)... or Christ.

At the time, FALSE gods were those that were rendered in pictures and built up in idols/statues... who people revered, venerated, even bowed down before. But the were INANIMATE... having NO life in them... which is what made them FALSE. They had eyes but did not see; ears but did not hear; mouths, but did not speak; legs but did not walk, etc. All of which are carved, crafted, painted on... because the entity did not TRULY exist. Think, the golden calf.

These still exist today, even in christendom (particularly in christendom, to its condemnation); however, TODAY, they exist... ALONG WITH the institutional entities that have since raised up. ANYTHING we put our faith in... ANYTHING we follow as leading us SPIRITUALLY... ANYTHING we glorify and put before God and Christ... ANYTHING we WORSHIP... is a GOD.

TRUE (meaning, real) gods are spirit beings that have eyes, ears, mouths, legs, etc., and SO see, hear, speak, walk, etc. Even fly. OF these, only ONE is the MOST Holy... and only One is the Holy: JAH... and His Son, JAHESHUA (Christ).

JAH is called the "True" God... because He is the MOST High God... there is nothing false or fake about Him... and He is only One we should WORSHIP (as a god). The "True" God is not an accurate rendering, though. Rather, the ALmighty God (as opposed to my Lord, who is a Mighty God)... most accurately describes Him. Because He alone is the ALL mighty... although my Lord is just a notch below (that One has been given ALL authority, in heaven AND on earth... except as to JAH Himself).

The "Divine" is the dynamic energy of which JAH consists... and all spirit beings are of the substance of that energy. We, are, as well... but on such a minute scale it's almost negligible. ALL came FROM that Source (JAH), so ALL are OF that source and a PART of that source. So, yes, ALL are "divine"... to a greater or lesser degree.

That spirit beings ARE "divine" (and thus gods) is why they don't DIE... and why the spirit that they ARE... must be DESTROYED. Which is why none have been destroyed, yet - the amount of ENERGY... JAH'S dynamic power... it would take TO destroy these... would destroy ALL. Everything in this realm. They are too strong, yet.

But that won't always be the case: as they are weakening, we, the Body... are being strengthened. So that when their demise DOES come, it will not annihilate us, as well.

Dear ones... you have to understand dynamic energy... JAH's dynamic energy... the PURE radiation... at a level completely unknown to... and unable to be harnessed in... OUR world. Certainly unable to be harnessed by man. It cannot BE known in our world... yet... as it would utterly destroy us.

As to FALSE gods, this:

Not to us, O JaHVeH, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your loving kindness, because of Your truth.

Why should the nations say,
“Where, now, is their God?”

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.

Their gods are silver and gold,
The work of man’s hands.
They have mouths, but they cannot speak;
They have eyes, but they cannot see;
They have ears, but they cannot hear;
They have noses, but they cannot smell;
They have hands, but they cannot feel;
They have feet, but they cannot walk;
They cannot make a sound with their throat.
Those who make them [d]will become like them,
Everyone who trusts in them."
Psalm 115:1-8

While these cannot make a sound with THEIR throats... JAH, the MOST HOLY One of Israel... can... and does. Because we (mankind in general) are SO far removed from Him (since Adham's receipt of and enslavement in the long garment of skin) ... He does so... through His Son, the HOLY ONE of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MishaJah)... who SPEAKS. Which is WHY that One is CALLED... the WORD... of JAH.

He doesn't speak to the PHYSICAL "man" we are, though... but to the SPIRIT "man" we are! Because THEY are spirits! God is looking for those who worship Him... IN SPIRIT. NOT by flesh.

I truly, truly hopes this helps those who TRULY want to know the TRUTH. He is out there.

Peace to you all!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with, and a slave of Christ,

SA


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Pure JW thinking, Shelby. Pure JW. I've heard it all before, and some of it straight out of the WT booklet on the subject, and straight out of the section in the Reasoning Book on the same topic.

Maybe time to be truthful and change the name of the site? How about JW's for Christ? That do you?


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Chariklo wrote:
Pure JW thinking, Shelby. Pure JW. I've heard it all before, and some of it straight out of the WT booklet on the subject, and straight out of the section in the Reasoning Book on the same topic.

Maybe time to be truthful and change the name of the site? How about JW's for Christ? That do you?



Char,
You really need to stop with the JW thinking line. You do not remember as much as you think as to what they teach. They do not have everything wrong or YOU and I and others would not have been entrapped by them professing truth.

They do not teach that CHRIST can speak ( as mentioned above) because then all could possess/ be annointed with the Holy Spirit not just 144,000. And he would communicate with them by means of this spirit. Therefore, they would not NEED the WTBS..

They do not believe CHRIST is the Word of God. ( Revelation 19:13)

They believe it is the Bible!

They do not understand Jahs dynamic energy and its source!

They DO teach that there are many gods and many lords. This is backed scripturally 1 Corinthians 8:5

This JW thinking line is what you keep falling back on when you do not want to read what's in the bible.

Love Justmom.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
As to FALSE gods, this:

Not to us, O JaHVeH, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your loving kindness, because of Your truth.

Why should the nations say,
“Where, now, is their God?”

But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.

Their gods are silver and gold,
The work of man’s hands.
They have mouths, but they cannot speak;
They have eyes, but they cannot see;
They have ears, but they cannot hear;
They have noses, but they cannot smell;
They have hands, but they cannot feel;
They have feet, but they cannot walk;
They cannot make a sound with their throat.
Those who make them [d]will become like them,
Everyone who trusts in them." Psalm 115:1-8



Yes, thank you... this is the scripture that my Lord reminded me of.



Peace,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Char, even if you cannot believe that Christ has taught it to those who hear Him... all of that is written in the bible.

Why do you so easily dismiss THAT?

Peace,
tammy


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Pure JW thinking, Shelby. Pure JW. I've heard it all before, and some of it straight out of the WT booklet on the subject, and straight out of the section in the Reasoning Book on the same topic.


Ummmm, YOU don't have to believe me, dear Char (peace, I think...). Even so, this was straight out of the Douay-Rheims Bible (Psalm 113:9-19):

"Not to us, O JaHVeH, not to us; but to thy name give glory.
For thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake: lest the gentiles should say: Where is their God?
But our God is in heaven: he hath done all things whatsoever he would.
The idols of the gentiles are silver and gold, the works of the hands of men.
They have mouths and speak not: they have eyes and see not.
They have ears and hear not: they have noses and smell not.
They have hands and feel not: they have feet and walk not: neither shall they cry out through their throat.
Let them that make them become like unto them: and all such as trust in them.
The house of Israel hath hoped in JaHVeH: he is their helper and their protector.
The house of Aaron hath hoped in JaHVeH: he is their helper and their protector.
They that fear JaHVeH hath hoped in JaHVeH: [b]he is their helper[/b] and their protector."



I actually like it BETTER, though, from the Jerusalem Bible:

Not to us, Yahweh, not to us, but to your name give the glory,
for your faithful love and your constancy!
Why should the nations ask, 'Where is their God?'
Our God is in heaven, he creates whatever he chooses.
They have idols of silver and gold, made by human hands.
These have mouths but say nothing, have eyes but see nothing,
have ears but hear nothing, have noses but smell nothing.
They have hands but cannot feel, have feet but cannot walk,
no sound comes from their throats.
Their makers will end up like them, and all who rely on them.

House of Israel, rely on Yahweh; he is their help and their shield.
House of Aaron, rely on Yahweh; he is their help and their shield.
You who fear Yahweh, rely on Yahweh; he is their help and their shield.
Yahweh will keep us in mind, he will bless,
he will bless the House of Israel, he will bless the House of Aaron,
he will bless those who fear Yahweh, small and great alike.
May Yahweh add to your numbers, yours and your children's too!
May you be blessed by Yahweh, who made heaven and earth.
Heaven belongs to Yahweh, but earth he has given to the children of Adam.
The dead cannot praise Yahweh, those who sink into silence,
but we, the living, shall bless Yahweh, henceforth and for ever."
Psalm 115:1-18


I thank YOU... TRULY... dear Char... you AND the Father... for giving ME the opportunity to share that moment of truth and praise of Him! THANK you... and please, don't feel too bad that YOU didn't take advantage of it (indeed, we should rejoice at and seize EVERY moment to give God praise and glory, should we not?) yourself. He knows you're still learning... as do I.

Quote:
Maybe time to be truthful and change the name of the site?


No, the site name is quite accurate. I realize NOW that, given your lack of real knowledge as to JW beliefs and teachings, you might not understand that.

Quote:
How about JW's for Christ? That do you?


But no, YOU'RE not mean, unkind, and snarky, not YOU - LOLOLOL! See, if I were to respond with something similar, like, "How about you go join a forum for those who have faith in the RCC so you can be among those who agree with YOU"... you would howl and cry foul and go on about how mean and unkind I am. But I would never say such a thing to you, dear Char... nor do I want you to do such... because I truly don't have that kind of disdain for YOU. I have a LOT of pity for you... particularly when you are reduced in your "intelligence" to responses such as this (it's sad, really)... but no disdain. Not even a speck. I just made that comment in the hopes that perhaps you will SEE your own heart... which continually pours forth that kind of snark... although no one says such things to YOU. I am hoping... because although I've BEGGED you to look at it (your heart), it seems that you still don't yet have to courage to do that. Maybe if you see such "disdain" reflected BACK... you will consider taking a look. You know... start with the rafter... THEN maybe worry about others' straws. Maybe.

My wish for peace for you remains.

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:28 pm 
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On an (attempt to be "nice(r)") note:

Quote:
How about JW's for Christ? That do you?


How about you try to remember that we are a forum for "ex-JWs [who are] FOR Christ" (vs. for "Jehovah" and/or the WTBTS)... and not a forum for "almost-exJWs [who are] for the RCC"? I mean, given our STATED and PUBLISHED purpose, I think that's a fair request.

How about you? Will THAT do YOU?

My wish for peace for you remains, and I remain...

A slave of Christ,

Shellamar


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Simple is:

God is the Father, Jahveh, the Most Holy One of Israel
Christ is the Son, Jaheshua, the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit)

Each has a title... God, Christ. Each is a person... Father, Son... with a name... Jahveh, Jaheshua.



Tammy, I must say girl-0....

I do love this one!!!!

Thank you for such simplicity.

Praise Jah !!!

Love ya sis Justmom


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:21 am 
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The issue with the "bitarian view" ( that there is only Father and Son and that the HS is, depending on the group, The Father, The son or just some "force") is that:
If the HS is Jesus, how does Jesus "send himself" as per those verses in John?
If the HS is The Father's siprit, why does it implied that He/it acts apart from The Father?
If the HS is an impersonal force how can it teach, love, feel pain, joy and, perhaps more importantly, advocate for Us ?


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:38 am 
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There are other questions too, Paul, following logically from this belief. Biunitarians and bitarian don't quite cut it, do they?

Goodness knows what a suitable noun could be!

I'll try and post some of those questions later, but time is short today.


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:29 am 
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Dear P (mornin and peace to you, luv!). You raise some great questions and I would be more than happy to share what I received from our Lord on these things. I am out running errands this morning and won't be back until after noon or so but if you can grant me your patience I think what I've received might provide some answers for you.

Back soon and peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:00 pm 
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Quote:
The issue with the "bitarian view" ( that there is only Father and Son and that the HS is, depending on the group, The Father, The son or just some "force") is that:


You are missing the TRUTH, still, dear P (mornin' and peace to you!): that there is holy spirit... or holy water/blood/breath/seed... which is JAH's life force (His blood, breath, and seed - the things that GRANT LIFE, even in THIS world)... and that there is the HOLY Spirit: Christ, the HOLY ONE of Israel... who, like JAH, is a SPIRIT... the LIFE-GIVING Spirit!

I will try and explain this to you as CLEARLY as possible; however, if one doesn't want to look up the scriptures/verses I include... absent going to and asking Christ himself... then one may STILL not get the TRUTH as to these things. Why? Because one will be relying on one's OWN understanding... and NOT JAH/Christ/holy spirit... and so will believe whatever it is they WISH to believe (still)... even if it ISN'T truth. If one would allow oneself a bit of humility, however, and condescend to at least CONSIDER what is written about these things... then one MIGHT be able to open oneself up to RECEIVING the truth... perhaps even from the SPIRIT of the Truth.

In that light:

The first, holy spirit that is JAH's life force is:

1. "Water"; and
2. "Oil" (of exultation)

As such, both of these are POURED OUT... UPON those who are chosen to receive it. The first, so as to CLEANSE... and the second, so ANOINT. If either WASHES... or FILLS... the one who receives it.

3. Blood;
4. Breath;
5. Semen/seed

As such, it grants LIFE... the REAL life... because it is the life that comes from JAH... NOT from our FLESHLY fathers... and so one who RECEIVES it we be LIKE JAH: able to know "good" (life) AND "bad" (death)... and yet LIVE. How so? Because this SPIRIT is what allows them to be resurrected... to ETERNAL life! Our OWN blood, breath, and seed/semen... CEASES when WE die, yes? But HIS blood, breath, and semen... continues FOREVER.

This is the SPIRIT... LIFE that Christ OFFERED up FOR mankind. After his resurrection, he BLEW it upon his Apostles. Because it can be granted in the form of BREATH - that is how ADHAM came to life: because JAH blew HIS spirit into Adham's nostrils. He then POURED IT OUT... upon those present in the upper room at Pentecost. He POURED it on such ones... by BLOWING UPON THEM, too! This is why they "heard a noise like a wind"! And before any of THIS... JAH poured it out upon HIM... in the form of a DOVE. Why the form of a dove? Because at THAT time, it was in the form of JAH's SEED: "This is my SON, whom I have APPROVED." It simply "floated down" and came UPON my Lord... ANOINTING him as JAH's Chosen One (Christ).

The second... Christ... AS the HOLY Spirit... is the Christ, GLORIFIED (John 7:37-39). He is a SPIRIT (as JAH is a spirit)... and he is the HOLY One. So... the HOLY Spirit... unlike all OTHER spirit beings (excluding JAH Himself)... who are NOT glorified and so are not "HOLY".

Where you and so many are getting hung up is:

1. The double use of the words "holy" and "spirit." For some reason, you can only see ONE rendering of those words, which I have to admit absolutely boggles MY mind. MANY words have double if not more meanings/uses. MANY. Why these two cause so many to "stumble"... is... inexplicable. Both words, "holy" AND "spirit" means several things... and are APPLIED to several things.

2. The "person" that is the Holy Spirit. This is ONLY because of three errors:

a. The misRENDERING of ONE Greek word "ekeinos" which means "he/she/it"... and the scribes chose to render as "he"... instead of accurately as "it"; which they did because THEY didn't have holy spirit leading THEM... and so relied on their OWN understanding.

b. The misUNDERSTANDING of Christ's direction to his disciples at Matthew 28:19, which led to another misRENDERING... one of THAT verse. My Lord did NOT tell his disciples to go baptizing "in the name of" the Father... and "the name of" the Son... and "the name of" the Holy Spirit. We can KNOW that because, first and foremost... the "Holy Spirit" that those who believe in a Trinity believe IN... DOESN'T HAVE A NAME! They can only refer to "him"... AS "him," "he", etc. If "he" HAD a name... Christ WOULD HAVE MADE IT KNOWN to those who belong(ed) to him. As he made the FATHER'S name known to them. John 17:6 What my Lord SAID was:

"Go, make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father (who's name they now KNEW)... INTO THE SON (meaning INTO Christ... by means of being baptized INTO HIS BODY)... IN HOLY SPIRIT (the "FIRE"... and "water"... that CLEANSES us so that we are BAPTIZED... into CHRIST, INTO HIS BODY)."

We can KNOW this... because JOHN, the ORIGINAL "Baptizer"... SAID that Christ would baptize us... WITH FIRE. And so, we have, for example, this account:

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive holy spirit when you believed?”

(Notice, I have removed the word "the"... because that is the CORRECT translation of the verse. The word "the" does NOT exist before ANY rendering of the words "holy spirit". I also uncapitalized them... because there were NO capital letters in the Greek and so where such exist they have been placed willy-nilly by those who lean on their OWN understanding and NOT because of the leading of Christ!)

Continuing:

"They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is holy spirit.”

(Notice, I quoted "is holy spirit" versus "there is A Holy Spirit." Because this is the CORRECT transliteration. Again, no capitalization for the same reason. However, the reason for this is because the Greek word "esti" means "to be" as with regard to a he/she/it. Now, those who are only familiar with the ENGLISH language may not understand why this is significant, but you, dear P, being familiar with Spanish, which derives from Latin... might. What does the word "este" in SPANISH mean? It is the SAME premise, dear one. It can apply to a he, she, OR it, yes? When one adds the "a", however, they change the entire meaning and premise. It's like saying these men said, "... we have not even heard that there is a blood... breath... seed." Versus, "... we have not even heard that there is blood... breath... seed." See?)

Continuing:

"So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

He asked this... because there were TWO baptisms at the time, yes? John tells us of them: "I baptize you WITH WATER... but one is coming who will baptize you WITH FIRE." Yes? And so, since these men responded:

John’s baptism,” they replied.

Well, John's was the ONLY baptism... right? No, it was not! Again, JOHN himself told them of another baptism! And so, Paul told them:

John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in [Jesus].” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord [Jesus]. When Paul placed his hands on them, holy spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all." Acts 19:1-5

c. Folks FORGETTING that it was the NATIONS that worshipped triune gods... NOT Israel (JAH was ONE, NOT two OR three!). And this is probably the greatest error for those who profess to be a member of Christ's Body... because, by means of his spirit, which leads, guides, and teaches them... they should KNOW better. They should REMEMBER one of Israel's greatest errors: following after the gods of the nations!

These three things are really the ONLY reason for the entire error of the Trinity teaching! But it doesn't have to be that way!

Quote:
If the HS is Jesus, how does Jesus "send himself" as per those verses in John?


Exactly! He did NOT send himself OR holy spirit - the FATHER sent HIS holy spirit! First TO Christ... then, THROUGH Christ. Our Lord didn't HAVE to ask the Father... because he already HAD that spirit. And so, HE could have rebelled... as Adham did! But he DIDN'T: he asked... OUT OF HUMILITY! Why? Because (1) he never forgot that those who were his were GIVEN him... BY the Father; and (2) having given himself TO the Father, he said that HE... could DO... NOTHING of his OWN initiative." Not even send holy spirit. John 5:9, 10 And so, rather than usurp from the FATHER... he ASKED... the FATHER... to send it (John 14:16)... which that One did (John 15:26)... THROUGH our Lord.

Quote:
If the HS is The Father's siprit, why does it implied that He/it acts apart from The Father?


Dear P... nothing of the sort is implied, not at ALL. Even Christ can't even act apart from the Father, dear one. Because for him to do so would negate the very UNION he claims WITH the Father. And that's what he SAID, that he could do NOTHING... except what he learned from the Father, received from the Father, and/or saw the Father doing. Yes? And so he said that WE... those IN UNION with him... could do nothing... APART from HIM, either. Yes? John 15:5, 6

Quote:
If the HS is an impersonal force how can it teach, love, feel pain, joy and, perhaps more importantly, advocate for Us ?


If you are speaking of holy spirit that is God's blood/breath/seed... then "it" can't... but JAH CAN... THROUGH it! Because of the BOND it makes. Like... twins. Or mother/child. How these can "feel", say, when the other hurts, feels pain, is sick... is happy, etc. They are bound... BY BLOOD.

As for "it" feeling... the Holy Spirit that is CHRIST... can and DOES teach (which is why he alone is to be called "Teacher"!!)... love (because he ALONE fulfilled the Law COMPLETELY... DUE to love!)... feel pain (as when WE do; he groaned and wept when Lazarus died, felt pity for those suffering from illnesses, felt the piercing of his flesh... joy when another was "found", like Zacchaeus!)...

And HE... IS the advocate for us, dear one - the ONLY One who can plead for us with the Father:

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father— [Jesus] Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2

And...

"Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Romans 8:34

And...

"Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because [Jesus] lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." Hebrews 7:23-25

HE... Christ... IS the helper/advocate/comforter/paraclete... dear, dear P! HE is! HE... is the AMEN... the SO BE IT... the YES! HE LIVES! And... he SPEAKS!

But... sadly... people are so busy looking elsewhere... at religions and such... and others... at some third person... at a Pope, the men of a GB, some church leader... even at Peter. And so, because their eyes are on THESE... they cannot SEE the One God Himself RAISED UP! NOT just raised up from the DEAD... but RAISED UP... ABOVE Israel and ALL of mankind... so that if their gaze in on HIM... they will NOT DIE:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” John 3:14, 15

Dear one... HOW did Moses lift that image up... and WHY? And what happened when folks looked at it... and what happened when folks looked AWAY?

Christ is lifted up in the SAME way, dear one. "JUST AS" Moses lifted up that image... the ONLY image EVER to be commissioned... and gazing upon it sanctioned... by JAH Himself. Because THAT image represented HIS true "image"... His SON... the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, MischaJah.

KISS... the SON... lest God be angry... and you perish! NOT "Kiss [the third person that is the Holy Spirit]." Psalm 2:12

I truly, truly hope this helps, dear brother. Truly. I REALLY hope it helps. But I also know that it doesn't matter what I say; it only matters if you can hear the SPIRIT... and his Bride... when they say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"

Which you can hear, if you have ears to do so. May you be given such ears... if you truly wish them.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:32 am 
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Posts: 706
First, you have to get out of the JW mindset that there were other Triune Gods and that somehow the Christian view of the Trinity is a "borrowing" of sorts from them.
That is simply not correct.
If we are to criticize the Trinity doctrine then we must criticize what it IS, not what we THING it is.
God being ONE does NOT go against the Triune Nature of God.
I am ONE, yet I am also Body, Mind, Soul/spirit.
The "O Shema" prayer isn't a comment on God's nature, but His supremacy as the One and Only Creator God.

I do understand what you wrote here about THE HS and the Spirit, you mentioned that before.
While I don't agree with the materialistic and graphic view of the Spirit being "blood, breathe, semen" when it what it is is simply the Spiritual Essence of God, I do see what you are trying to convey.


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