xjwsforChrist

Non-Religious Christian Spirituality
It is currently Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:10 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: John 1:1
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
As we know, in the NWT, John 1:1 reads:
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.”

Here is an article I found interesting:

Quote:
A Question the Jehovah’s Witnesses Can’t Answer

When I was in seminary in the 1970’s, I took Cults from Walter Martin and he had former Jehovah’s Witness Bill Cetnar speak to the class. What follows is the line of reasoning Cetnar presented. I’ve used it ever since with JWs at my door, with JW Greg Stafford and other JWs on my radio program, and with JW elders at Kingdom Halls (By the way, I was 16 the first time I went into a Kingdom Hall to witness to the JWs).

Christian: Let me ask you only one question and after you answer it, I’ll answer any question you want. First I need to clarify a few things. In the New World Translation, John 1:1 reads: “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” Then in Isaiah 9:6 (NWT) we read: “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” So then, does Jehovah equal almighty God?

JW: Yes.

C: Now Jesus isn’t Jehovah, right?

JW: That’s right.

C: Jesus equals a Mighty God?

JW: That is correct.

C: Is Jehovah a true God or a false God?

JW: Jehovah is a true God.

C: Is Jesus a true God or a false God?

JW: Jesus is a true God.

C: Okay, here’s my question: How can you believe there are two true Gods when the Bible says there is only one God? After all, it says in Isaiah 43:10-11 (NWT), “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.” And Isa: 44:6 (NWT) says: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

JW: That passage is teaching that there are no capital “G” gods.

C: Hebrew doesn’t have capital letters so the capitalization of the “G” in those passages is an insertion by the NW translators to make us believe there are two categories of gods. It is equivalent to their just inserting the word “almighty” in the text. If the Lord had wanted to proclaim that “besides me there is no Almighty God” instead of what it really says, “beside me there is no god,” He could easily have had Isaiah insert the word “Almighty” in those passages. But He didn’t.

JW: Well, we only worship one God.

C: If I only loved one wife but was married to two women, I would still be a polygamist and your believing there are two true Gods even though you only worship one of them still makes you a polytheist. The Bible says there is only one God.

JW: But the Bible calls Satan a God.

C: Is Satan a true God or a false God?

JW: A false God.

C: You still have two true Gods.

JW: But in Ex. 4:16 (NWT) it says that Moses “will serve as God to him [Pharaoh].”

C: It says Moses will serve “as God.” In other translations of this verse it says Moses will be “like God” to him. Do you see a difference between serving “as” God or “like” God and really being a god? For example, if I said an older woman was “as a mother to me” it wouldn’t mean that I actually came out of her womb, right? Do you see the difference?”

JW: But the word “God” is just a title that can be used for those on the side of God.

C: Then there would be lots of true Gods, but John 17:3 (NWT) says “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” If that’s true, how could you say that Jesus is a true God?

JW: As I said, we only worship one God.

C: But I’m not asking about how many Gods you worship, I’m asking about how many Gods you think are true. Can you think of a time when someone says that ‘X’ is the ‘only true’ ‘X’ that it doesn’t make everything else in that category false? If there God is the ‘only true’ God then any other god must be a false god, but you have already said that Jehovah and Jesus are both true Gods and that makes… count them… two true Gods.

JW: 1 Cor. 8:4-6 says “…there is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called ‘gods,’ whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords,’ there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” See, the Father is God, not Jesus.

C: But you’ve already agreed there are two true Gods and this passage says there is only one God.

JW: You’re talking about the Trinity.

C: No, I’m pointing out that Jehovah’s Witnesses are polytheists who believe there is more than one true God, even though the Bible tells us there is only one true God.

JW: We didn’t come here to argue. [What?]

C: Okay, well, if you want to bring someone back, I’ll be glad to talk with them. [That hasn’t happened yet.]

This is all about logic. After all, if there is one God and if there are three persons in the Bible called God, then the three persons must be the one God. It is no surprise that I have yet to hear a coherent answer. I carried on an email dialog with one JW and after several months she ended our discussion with, “You just like to go around and destroy other people’s religions!”

What?

By the way, I really don’t let them ask me a question unless they can answer mine first because JWs, more than any cult I’ve talked to, will change the subject as soon as they see they are in a bind (I got that from Bill Cetnar, too).

Titus 2:13: “We wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Amen.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 866
Spot on, Paul.

That's almost the exact discussion I had with two JW's. I also included the fact that they insisted that Jesus was a god and Satan was a god. Really? I asked. Yes. That's what they said.

So I asked was Jesus a true god? Yes, they said. Is Jesus good? Yes. What about Satan? Is Satan good? No, Satan is a false god. Do you mean he is bad, I asked. Yes, they said. So he's a bad god? So there are two good gods, and a bad god? And so we went on. That way lie the dualist heresies.

Nowhere in their peculiar reasonings did they decide that Jesus was the Holy Spirit. But then, I think that belief is uniquely belonging here.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
Chariklo wrote:
Spot on, Paul.

That's almost the exact discussion I had with two JW's. I also included the fact that they insisted that Jesus was a god and Satan was a god. Really? I asked. Yes. That's what they said.

So I asked was Jesus a true god? Yes, they said. Is Jesus good? Yes. What about Satan? Is Satan good? No, Satan is a false god. Do you mean he is bad, I asked. Yes, they said. So he's a bad god? So there are two good gods, and a bad god? And so we went on. That way lie the dualist heresies.

Nowhere in their peculiar reasonings did they decide that Jesus was the Holy Spirit. But then, I think that belief is uniquely belonging here.


The perfect union of Father, Son and HS, means they share the same nature and, in many ways, they same "roles".
EX:
The father is judge and saviour ( though He gives judgment over to the son)
The son is judge and saviour.
The HS is judge and saviour.

Now, how can that be?
It was questions like this that brought about the creation of the Trinity doctrine.


But that is NOT the point of this thread.

The point is that, IF Jesus is A god, then He is either a true god or a false god, so which one is he for the JW's?
If He is a true god then we have TWO true Gods.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:11 pm
Posts: 866
He isn't "a" god. He is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spitit is God. Not three gods, or two gods, but one.

Yes, I know well what brought about the Council of Nicaea. I have those documents, and those of the Desert Fathers. And much else.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
Chariklo wrote:
He isn't "a" god. He is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spitit is God. Not three gods, or two gods, but one.

Yes, I know well what brought about the Council of Nicaea. I have those documents, and those of the Desert Fathers. And much else.

The issue for some is the word/term "God".
People tend to view it as a "name" rather than a title or description.
To comment that Jesus is God ( The word is God) is to make a comment on the nature of The Word, the attributes He Has, what He is, not "who".
God is what Jesus is, it is what The Father is, it is what the HS is.
A perfect union that has existed eternally ( ate least as far as our ability to understand "time" goes).
You can't get one without the other(s).


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3165
I don't think it is so difficult to understand how the Son can have the same roles as the Father, Paul.

Christ was given from His Father... all power and authority. IF a Son receives an inheritance (kingdom and authority and power) from his father... does he not also inherit the titles and roles that go with that inheritance?


Creating a doctrine like the trinity however, makes something simpler harder to see though. Same as with the wts creating the Michael doctrine.



Trinity or no trinity... that is an argument that has been going on since the very beginning. Just because the majority believed in the trinity doesn't make it right, lol. I am always leery of what the majority believes, and I won't reason it out for myself either... because hey, what do I know? I will listen to Christ and put faith in what He tells me, though.


There might be a reason that acceptance of the trinity is considered non-essential for salvation though, including by those who hold and teach the doctrine.


Now, as for that conversation in the OP... one COULD do the same thing with the trinity doctrine, leaving questions and holes in the understanding. It all depends upon how you form your questions.

Though I believe my question to the person asking those questions above would have been in regards to how they define true or false god. Satan is god of this world... which makes him a true god... but not THE God, Jahveh, the Father of Christ, the Most Holy One of Israel.

A false god... would be something like the golden calf. An idol made of gold (or wood or bronze), that is dead, that is nothing, that cannot speak because it is just a piece of gold or wood, etc. That is a false god.


Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3165
Maybe also the word 'true' and 'false' is wrong.

Satan is a real god... but not THE God.



I guess I am trying to say that the above line of reasoning would not have gotten that far with me... because I would have stopped to question what the person meant by 'true' and 'false' god.


Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3165
I am reminded also by the Spirit... that Christ also called Satan, the father of some of the Jews... but that does not mean that Satan was THE Father, the Most Holy One of Israel. Just that he was the father of those who listened to him.

Same with the title 'god'.

But I will wait now for someone to describe to me the meaning in the OP reasoning, of 'true and false gods'.

Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
Satan is a false god Tammy.
Any being that is not OF God ( begotten and sharing the same nature) is NOT God.
Satan was a created being, like the rest of the angels and demons ( and Us).
Christ was begotten, not created.
Christ IS God like a Human child IS human.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3165
See... I don't think I would have gotten past the 'true' or 'false'.

The conversation would not have gone farther than that, until after we got that one sorted ; ).

Because the rest of the conversation follows from that point as a given, leading a person to a specific end.

Replacing 'jehovah' with Jahveh... I would have said that Jahveh IS God. THE God. The ONE true God, whose Son came FROM Him... begotten, yes... but who is NOT the same being.

Else I might ask a trinitarian... knowing that the Son came from God, the Father... well, where did the Father come from? Did the Father also come from God? Or is the Father, in fact, God, Himself.

Peace,
tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
tec wrote:
See... I don't think I would have gotten past the 'true' or 'false'.

The conversation would not have gone farther than that, until after we got that one sorted ; ).

Because the rest of the conversation follows from that point as a given, leading a person to a specific end.

Replacing 'jehovah' with Jahveh... I would have said that Jahveh IS God. THE God. The ONE true God, whose Son came FROM Him... begotten, yes... but who is NOT the same being.

Else I might ask a trinitarian... knowing that the Son came from God, the Father... well, where did the Father come from? Did the Father also come from God? Or is the Father, in fact, God, Himself.

Peace,
tammy


There is only ONE true God and that God is YHWH.
Yes, there are many "other gods" who are fallen angels passing themselves off as "gods" but none are God.
Jesus is God like YHWH because they share the same nature and as such Jesus is God.
Look at John:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Word ( Logos) was WITH God and WAS God.
This is a statement of nature and not "identity".
All that God was, The Word Was.

The Son was begotten of The Father BEFORE there was "time" as we know it so OUR understanding of a time when The Father existed without the Son is "faulty" because there was never a "time" when The Father was without The Son.
You must throw out the concept of "time" as something that God is subject to, He isn't.

At no point was Father without Son because then He would not have been complete and as such, He would have been NOT God for that means He would have "needed" something ( The Son), it means that He ( The Father) could only have loved Himself and that is a self-centered love which is inferiour to the other-centered love He has with The Son, which would make God at a certain point in "time" (before The son), inferior and as such, NOT God.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3165
Quote:
Satan is a false god Tammy.
Any being that is not OF God ( begotten and sharing the same nature) is NOT God.
Satan was a created being, like the rest of the angels and demons ( and Us).
Christ was begotten, not created.
Christ IS God like a Human child IS human.



Paul, you are relegating God to a 'species', for lack of a better word. Right?


So that God then is three people of the single species, God?


Because I do understand that Christ is of the same nature as His Father. But the above doesn't seem quite right, does it?

Why in all the greetings in all the letters written is it worded,

Grace and peace to you from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ... rather than God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... ?

Or what about this one:

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many time and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.

God and the son are spoken of as two things here. God... through prophets... and then God.. through His Son.

And this one:

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says...

IF the Son is the firstborn of God... then where did the father come into play, if the father is also a person in 'God'?

And this one:

Therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions...

God... your God...

God is spoken of as an individual here. Not as a nature, or title, or species. But as an individual person.



And what about our Lord's own words, because these are the ones that matter the most, as Christ is the one we are to listen TO:

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

He is praying to His Father in the above, from John 17:1-3... when He says "YOU, the only true God"... and He then says AND, Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (you, the Father, God)


These are just a few questions that are raised in me, in regard to this trinity doctrine.


Peace to you!

tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:19 am
Posts: 3165
Quote:
Satan is a false god Tammy.


Yes, he is... because he is not the truth. He is the father of lies. So he cannot be a true anything.

My words a few posts above may have been misleading, and I apologize to anyone who read them if so... because I meant (and I hope that I made this point clear), that he is a real being and a god... rather than a figment of imagination turned into an idol made of wood or gold or bronze.


He can be a god... because he IS the god of this world. He is not the Truth, nor is He the One True God. So in that, yes, he is a false god... leading people away from the Truth and the One True God.


Again, I apologize if I confused anyone, and hope that I have made myself clear.


Peace to you!

tammy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
I guess we can start by viewing God as a "term" we use for the ONE species that is God, sure.
We know it isn't His name.
God is a term used to define the characteristics of the supreme creator being YHWH.
When we think "God", we think all power, all knowing, all seeing, all loving, in short a complete being of limitless power that is perfect and needs/wants nothing.
That is GOD.
Anything less is less so, is not God.

We can view God through a very small lens of comprehension.
We can no more understand/fully comprehend God than a single cell amoeba can comprehend Us.
Nothing we say can explain God and no words will do justice.
But words is all we have.

Thank Our Father for His Son, Our Lord, because in HIM ( Jaheshua) we can FINALLY glimpse God in OUR Terms, in a way we can understand.

Passages that speak on ONE of them or TWO of them or all THREE are not statements of THEM, but reflections of what the writers were trying to express.

You question is how can they speak of God and Son and mean the same thing, right?
Because, even to Trinitarians, God is synonyms with The Father.

The Father was The God of the Son, yes, why wouldn't He be?
Same nature does NOT = same "authority" ( even though they did have).
Even If I had all the power of My father, all the authority, I would still view him, my father, as my superior, so for the Son of God, who was God, to view His Father as God is only natural.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: John 1:1
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am
Posts: 706
tec wrote:
Quote:
Satan is a false god Tammy.


Yes, he is... because he is not the truth. He is the father of lies. So he cannot be a true anything.

My words a few posts above may have been misleading, and I apologize to anyone who read them if so... because I meant (and I hope that I made this point clear), that he is a real being and a god... rather than a figment of imagination turned into an idol made of wood or gold or bronze.


He can be a god... because he IS the god of this world. He is not the Truth, nor is He the One True God. So in that, yes, he is a false god... leading people away from the Truth and the One True God.


Again, I apologize if I confused anyone, and hope that I have made myself clear.


Peace to you!

tammy


I know what you meant.
I just wanted to show that there is such a thing as TRUE God and False God.
Father, Son and HS are GOD because of their perfect union and shared nature, they are The True God and any others claiming to be god are false ones.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group