xjwsforChrist

VANDERHOVEN7 SAID


Thank you for your detailed answer Aguest.

I believe the gentleman involved will soon move toward legal separation at least and legal divorce at most. Sadly the woman involved apparently wants to be free and will not contest.
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Jesus is Lord

AGUEST SAID

It happens, dear VDH (again, peace to you, dear on!)... to even the best of mankind. My apologies, though, for my verbosity. Lots to say on some subjects; well, a lot in me, on some of them - LOLOLOL!

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

VANDERHOVEN7 SAID

Hi Aguest,



Wow...no apology necessary. I appreciate the time and effort you put in gal.

The apostle Paul taught that if an unbelieving spouse leaves a believer, the believer is not bound to the marriage relationship, but is free to remarry" (1 Corinthians 7:15). In a very real way, for over two years now, this gentleman's wife has abandoned him, cut him off totally although living under the same roof, separate bedrooms of course. She says she will never be a wife to him, only a friend, and that the only reason she would go to a counselor is to learn to communicate better as friends. He says that will not do.

I feel for this guy...a tall, fit, handsome, hard working university lecturer, church youth group leader.

My wife says it's time for this young man to move on.

Time will tell how this will unfold.

Thanks again for your input.

Vander

P.S. The rotti in the pic looks a lot like our rottweiler.
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Jesus is Lord

JUSTMOM SAID

AGuest wrote:




Thank you also my sister for sharing that! I have had so many people so confused, even family members as to what "frees/doesn't free/whats grounds etc....

And our Lord has freed us of so much worry like you mentioned. We are only to worry about ourselves and the safe route is "NO CONDEMNATION" so that we are not condemned in return. None of are without SIN We "ARE" sin and need that covering/foregiveness 24/seven!

Love to all your sister in Christ
justmom

AGUEST SAID



He did. Unfortunately, that's not what Christ is recorded to have taught and if I had to go by what is "written," then I would have to by the latter's words on the matter:

[color]"I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for adultery or fornication and marries another, commits adultery; and [n]whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.[/b]"[/color] Matthew 19:9

If we're talking about what is written, I also know that Christ was recorded as showing that adultery is not blasphemy and thus can be forgiven (John 8:1-11) as well as that those who belong to him should not judge others (indeed, he set the example by not judging an adulterous woman brought to him). So, the bottom line for ME... is to live... and let live. To each one's own master he/she will stand or fall.

We have to keep in mind that "Paul" is recorded to have (erroneously) taught a couple/few things that he later had to change, including his teaching on "removing" ones from the congregation, something Christ NEVER taught (he didn't tell his disciples to remove Judas; heck, he didn't even let on to them that he knew Judas would betray him - p'rolly cause he knew Peter would try to kill the man before he could fulfill his purpose - LOL!). He also initially taught that the congregations were to judge those in them; however, a year later, when addressing the Roman congregation, he said they were to now stop judging. Hence, Paul is not someone we should be looking to for truth on a matter that Christ himself has already addressed. Right?

And so I cannot lie as to or "water down" this matter by using what "Paul" said... to spare someone's conscience. I can only offer the TRUTH... and that there is forgiveness and those who need to should feel free to ask for it and do so IN FAITH... without judging others... while not judging but forgiving such one my own self.

But to teach the lie... sorry, dear one, but no can do. I answer to someone "higher" than even Paul.

Again, peace to you... and your dear friend (whom you can forgive... but I would offer than you both might want to consider forgiving that wife, too. I'm just saying...)

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

TEC SAID

I have never commented on this topic, but mostly it is because I accept what you have shared. Of course it is not the religious pomp or ceremony or signing of documents that make a man and woman one. Those are contracts; surface deep. Without consummation, as you said, there is no actual marriage, as it can be annulled (rather than divorced). Just a contract.


Peace,
tammy

AGUEST SAID

It is a very delicate topic, dear tec (again, peace to you, dear one!)... and so not one I broach often (although it came up repeatedly on JWN). I did here because of the OP. Thankfully, it's not something anyone NEED lose sleep over... although it is something that causes many to do so.

If we live... and let live... and forgive so that we will be forgiven... it needn't even be a topic for discussion in our daily lives for the most part.

My comments really are nothing more than an FYI... for those who want to know the truth about it.

Again, peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

SA

SABASTIOUS SAID




I made the thread because it's a topic that is greatly distorted by modern day religion. Celibacy is not a foundational element of Christianity. Such is readily ascertained by reading the contents of Genesis 38:




I really appreciate everyone's contribution to this thread. I also put this OP at JWN and there is a lot of good information there too. Here is a link to the thread.

-Sab

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID

The one thing the bible makes very clear is that,even the "heroes" of the bible are NOT good people, they make horrific mistakes, commit atrocious acts, the lie, cheat, steal and kill.
In short, they are as human as everyone else.
You can say what you want about the bible but you can't say that it sugar coats the people in the bible.

WILLIAM SAID





Does this guy know you?

Suppose the wife does not know about the previous sexual activty of her new husband. Is she still an adulterous? That does not seem fair.

Do you think two men have the ability to consumate a marriage under the condition of no previous sexual activity?

AGUEST SAID



He does, dear William (peace to you!).




Had to ask about that one, dear one... and the answer was that while HE is an adulterer, she is not because adultery starts in the heart (it also works the other way around, say, she had previous sexual relationship but he didn't and doesn't know...). Doesn't negate what she/he becomes once she does know... and continues... though. Even so, it's not an unforgivable sin. One should never just assume that one is forgiven, though, without having (1) asked, and (2) washed in the blood of the Lamb. Once one has been forgiven/washed, the sin is removed and the person is now in a "cleansed" state.

This is important, though, because what is often taught as Christ's words to the women caught in adultery who was brought to him ("Go your way and sin no more") is inaccurate. My Lord's words to the woman was "Go you way; your sin IS no more." Because he had cleansed her of her sin by means of his forgiveness... which later be ratified by his blood. Thus, she was now WITHOUT sin.

So she was now clean and so long as she didn't commit adulteryagain, she would remain clean. BUT... and this is VERY important... as with the Samaritan woman at the well (who was living with a man who was not HER husband), she no longer had sin and could remain in the relationship, if there was one, as a NON-adulterous woman (if the man was still in a marriage relationship with another, however, her being with him would be adultery "again". If he was not, he, too, could be forgiven for and cleansed of HIS adultery by the same means: forgiveness and cleansing by the blood of Christ).

This is because such cleansing put her back to a VIRGIN state, that of an UNMARRIED woman. She just could not move on to another adulterous relationship (with that man, if he was in a marriage, or another man in a marriage) because that would sinning "again."

[NOTE: The woman at the well had had 5 husbands (meaning, she was most probably a divorcee and thus, also an adulteress), and the man she was currently with was not even her husband. Yet, Christ did not dismiss her OR him. Rather, he acknowledged her telling him the TRUTH by forgiving her... and telling her to go call the man she lived with. He didn't mention her adultery or condemn her for her current living arrangement - rather, he blessed her for her truth... and faith... which blessing was later ratified by his blood].



As in with each other? Dang, now why'd you have to go an ask about that?! No, seriously, here is the TRUTH: no, they do not. It is not a marriage, anymore than a man and, say, a sheep consummate a marriage. Or a woman and, say, a donkey. Just because two beings with genitals have sex doesn't make it a marriage, sorry, dear one. It is one form of fornication... and CAN be adultery (if there had been a marriage before). "Marriage" is between a man and a woman (and no, I am not Republican - LOL! I'm not Democrat... or Independent... either, though. I digress).

HOWEVER... and you want to pay attention here... like adultery... such fornication is not necessarily unforgivable (I say not necessarily because it CAN be - for example, if one claimed that "holy spirit said" it was NOT fornication and folks should just feel free, etc. That's not how it works). It is really similar to an adulterous relationship... which many (MANY) "christians" are in, even some Body members. And so (1) no one should judge others on this matter (Christ didn't even mention it, so...!); (2) love covers a multitude of transgressions... even adultery and fornication... and there is no law against love; and (3) the blood of Christ can cover any sin, except blasphemy against the holy spirit. And maybe even that should the Most Holy One of Israel choose - for He shows mercy to whomever He chooses to show it. It can even cover blasphemy against the Son (committed before he was glorified).

John summed how we might look at things like this quite well:

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:5-10

Bottom line, then, dear one, is that NO ONE should be judging ANYONE as to such a thing because ALL have sinned. One's sin might be adultery, while another's is fornication, while another's is coveting, while another's is idolatry, while another's is bearing false witness against a brother, while another's is committing murder. Since it's not what's on the outside that God looks at, but what's on the INSIDE... and all of these sins... and MORE... reside in our HEART before they're eve manifested by the flesh... well, there was his words about "the one without sin"... and all that.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

WILLIAM SAID

Dear AG (do you mind if I call you AG?), I kinda figured you were not affiliated with any political party.

Thank you for your respectful answer. I'm going to have to mull it over for a bit before I try to make an somewhat intelligent reply. There's a lot to think about there.

*holds out a plate of shortbread cookies*

WILLIAM SAID




I have trouble realizing the distinction between one who claims to be purified of sin from one who claims to be without sin. Therefore, either would be liars in that context.

The Bible always seems to boil down to a catch 22 for me.

I also think it is impossible to live your life without judgement. It is a basic survival instinct.

I'm still mulling...

*grabs another cookie*

AGUEST SAID



Don't mind at all, dear one (peace to you!). And re political parties, can't see the benefit, unfortunately. Such parties tend to change every generation or so and humans tend to forget fairly quickly (i.e., within a generation or two). I see good and bad in all political parties, but only good in following Christ, whose kingdom is no part of THIS world (or its superior authorities).

.


Take your time, dear one. Actually, neither of our lives depend on knowing this stuff, but on the blood of Christ (for me) and how those considered Christ's brothers are treated, for both. That really is the bottom of line.



It's like this, dear one: one who has been cleansed from sin IS, afterward, without sin. In contrast, one who claims to be "without sin"... without having been cleansed of sin... doesn't believe... or understand... that they FIRST need to be CLEANSED of sin... so as to BE "without" sin. ALL have sinned, dear one, saved Christ... and so no one is "without sin", save Christ... without being cleansed OF their sin.




You... and most of mankind since its canonization. Which makes it impossible to live by/follow. If one lives by/follows the Holy Spirit... which is the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), however... the confusion disappears. Literally.



VERY difficult, yes, but not impossible. Right? Because with God... ALL things are possible. Right? Even living "without judgment"? Without God, though... and so by default, without Christ... yes, it's probably impossible.




Yeah, I can see how you might...

*takes a cookie, then two more...*

Peace to you, dear one! BTW, rather than "mull"... you CAN simply ask. And then put faith in what you hear. Easiest way to know the truth, IMHO.

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

WILLIAM SAID

I ask all the time. I'm still waiting on the answer.

I am just mulling on what you offer. And I'll prolly ask about that tonight before I lay to sleep.


PS- Someone needs to make more shortbread cookies.