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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:20 pm 
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I overheard this statement from a family member. I wasn't in the room when it was stated, but I heard it. Of course, my wife forbids me to speak about anything biblical anymore, so I couldn't refute it.

This family member said it occurred to him that if all good people go to heaven, then Jesus coming down and dying in our behalf was for nothing.

That was the statement. Of course, when I heard it, I immediately thought, "WTF?" This, of course, is not what WTBTS teaches... it was his own conclusion. I had numerous thoughts immediately, including:
'Um, hello? Blood of the covenant?'

But, again, I couldn't say anything.

I've been mulling this over in my mind since yesterday. There's just so much wrong with that statement that I want to scream out: "What's wrong with you people?!?!?!??!?"

1. WTBTS teaches that the new covenant ONLY applies to the 144,000, the ONLY ones who go to heaven. So, just the opposite is true of his statement. The 'dying in our behalf' applies SPECIFICALLY FOR people who go to heaven, according to WTBTS, while the rest of JWs are beneficiaries of that ransom.
2. WTBTS teaches that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, ONLY for the 144,000, the only ones, according to them, who go to heaven, and the rest of JWs are beneficiaries of that covenant.
3. Biblically speaking, the fact that our Lord died in our behalf is partly so that we DO have a way opened for entry into the holy place. (Hebrews 9 & 10, particularly 10:19,20)

I'm sure there's much more here that is ruminating around in my mind that I can't get out onto "paper". So, please, your thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:33 pm 
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LQ:

“Your thoughts.”

May you have Peace the way Christ gives it. My thoughts. . . .

You wrote the one in your family said that “all good people go to heaven.” FYI, there are NO good people.—Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19. Christ is either correct or in error. Which do YOU believe he is?

So then, that begs the question: If no good people go to heaven, then who actually does go to heaven and how do they get there (meaning, What is the criteria that gets them there?)? And what do they get when they get there? What is the purpose of going there?

“This family member said it occurred to him that if all good people go to heaven, then Jesus coming down and dying in our behalf was for nothing.”

If that reasoning were true then this member’s conclusion might be correct. However, we know better, do we not? The fact that he came to earth, died, and was resurrected, means there was a purpose to it, yes? Especially in contrast to this family member’s statement.

As for your statement (no disrespect intended): “my wife forbids me to speak.” “Forbid? How does that work? How is it she can forbid anything you want to do or say, especially in defense of your Lord and your God? Aren’t you “her” head? Isn’t it “she” who needs to be submissive (using JW verbiage) to you? Why couldn’t you refute it? Your wife already knows where you stand, right?

“But, again, I couldn't say anything.”

Why?

--Armand


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:56 pm 
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@Armand... it's a "keeping the peace" thing.

My wife never was one to be submissive, which has actually led to more strife in the marriage than there should be. Not that I am a "lord it over" kind of guy. I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination. My wife fits the epitome of the phrase, "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." She is a bit passive-aggressive, which leads to a rollercoaster of a relationship. In more recent times, I simply shut my mouth, otherwise, her claws come out.

When I finally told her how I feel about WTBTS' teachings, she refused to hear me on what I DO believe or even WHY I don't believe WTBTS. It really showed me the level of her indoctrination. Maybe "forbid" is not quite the correct term, but that's how I interpret her strong request for me not to talk about what I think or how I feel about anything religious / biblical / spiritual. As far as she's concerned, I'm no longer her "spiritual head". Yes, she told me so, quite directly.

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FYI, there are NO good people.—Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19. Christ is either correct or in error. Which do YOU believe he is?

Ha! Good point. I knew that as we just had that discussion on this board, but didn't even think about this.

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The fact that he came to earth, died, and was resurrected, means there was a purpose to it, yes? Especially in contrast to this family member’s statement.

Yes, exactly. And the way I see it, part of that purpose, at least for those part of the first resurrection, was to go to heaven until such time as New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. But, not just "to go to heaven". No, to have entry into the holy place, to be before God himself, which could not be done unless Christ died as the propitiatory sacrifice, something the sacrifices of the Law could not accomplish. At least, that's my high-level understanding at this time.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:09 pm 
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I understand "keeping the peace" thing. . . .

As for those whom Christ is calling, he is calling those who are to be in his administration. You might read 1 Peter and take careful note of just why he is calling those, for what purpose. Hint: "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a people for special possession, etc., etc., etc." But like I said, 1 Peter is a pretty good read for letting one know who he is call and perhaps more important, WHY he is calling them/us. At this point in time, he is not concerned with calling anyone else. He is getting his "cabinet" together first and now.

--Armand


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:11 pm 
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This family member said it occurred to him that if all good people go to heaven, then Jesus coming down and dying in our behalf was for nothing.


Okay, so sometimes I feel a bit out of the loop, in that I don't read or hear something automatically as jws understand it and as ex-jws understand from having once been jws. Sometimes I hear something in the way that main(ish) stream 'christianity' understand it. Because to me, the statement from your family member seemed to be one of refuting the popular, albeit false, 'good people go to heaven/bad people go to hell' mantra.


So I was agreeing with him because I dislike that particular mantra - as it is a lie - and I was thinking about that statement the some people say 'all good people go to heaven'... when my Lord reminded me of His words here:

"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


He did not come to call 'good' people. As Armand said above, there are none good but God (and Christ also now). We are ALL sinners. Christ came so that we may have forgiveness in His blood, be made clean in His blood, and that we may LIVE.

Paul also stated this in his letter to Timothy:

"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst."


The issue can get muddied up with the various teachings on heaven verses the Kingdom, also.

Christ does gather all who belong to Him - His Body (the 144 and the great crowd that no one can count) - to meet Him in the sky, to be married, and the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven and those in Christ are kings/priests with Him in the Kingdom. Then the sheep and the goats are separated (over the thousand years), and the sheep enter into the Kingdom as subjects.


Peace to you both,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:55 pm 
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I'm curious, dear LQ (peace to you, dear brother!): which is MORE important and of MORE benefit to you... AND your dear wife... AS WELL AS the REST of your dear household: what your dear wife THINKS/BELIEVE (about you and your position in relation to her) or what our dear Lord... and our dear Father... thinks about you... and your position in relation to THEM?

Not trying to hurt your feelings, dear one. Rather, just trying to help YOU save your life... and possibly hers'/their's. As part of YOUR body, she OWE it to you to hear you out. Just she/JWs/the WTBTS teach non-Jewish that THEY should hear their JW mates out.

She doesn't respect you and certainly not your faith. Sure, the WTBTS may be teaching her that it's okay not to. However, by your silence even as to OTHERS erroneous beliefs, you might be teaching her that it's okay, too. In doing so... you may find that you are CONTRIBUTING to HER error/sin. Same as if you remained quiet and/or even HELPED her when she lied, stole, blasphemed, etc.

No, you wouldn't go run and "turn her in" to the "elders," but SURELY you would say... as Adham SHOULD have said to Eve or she to him... and Sapphira to Ananais or he to her... "Honey, I LOVE you... and for THAT reason I can't join you, help/let you do what you're doing (to ME). THAT would be us sinning TOGETHER... and if we do THAT, who's left to plead for US... to CHRIST... Who pleads to the FATHER (for us)? If I join you, then I am sinning TOO... WITH you. If I refrain, though, MAYBE JAH will hear MY prayer on YOUR behalf... because *I* can still go to... and THROUGH... Christ. If we BOTH disobey... NOT "headship" but the LAW... of LOVE... who's left? WHO will ASK Christ to beg for mercy FOR us?"

Again, not trying to make you feel bad. Just trying to wake you up... with some TRUTH... which I hope you can receive.

The greatest of love and peace... the way Christ gives BOTH... to you, dear, dear brother!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Good Evening dear LQ and peace to you....


Great comments.

The understanding of most religions and their hopes are:
1. Heaven if your "good"!
2 Hell if your bad! And hell consists of God tormenting you forever.

Which of course neither are correct. But since the JWs do not actually teach of a burning hellfire and suffering eternally for people (which they are correct)...
And they don't teach any but 144,000 go to heaven, the earth is whats left.

What they fail to understand and teach is that the great crowd AND the 144,000 are part of Christs body. That they ALL go to heaven for a minute (figure of speech) for the marriage of the Lamb THEN...they come DOWN to the earth and rule UPON it not OVER it.
So New Jeruselum is upon the earth. Gods tent is with mankind, and he will RESIDE among mankind. This is how the sheep who do good to Christs brothers are able to enter into this city. It is here!

So although we understand that just being good is not the criteria for inheriting heaven...
I dont understand why they feel this would invalidate the importance of Christs sacrifice anyways. There is NO other Life ANYWHERE LOL without Him. (maybe i didn't understand this)

Nice hearing from you. The more you listen to our Lord and the more he reveals to you, the more you'll feel like screaming LOL!!!

Love your sister and fellow slave of Christ, Kim


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:24 pm 
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As for the topic (peace, dear one... and I hope you know me enough by now to know "where" from within me my previous comments came... as well as the verbosity that will come now - LOLOL!)...

Quote:
This, of course, is not what WTBTS teaches


They may not teach it, but I've heard many a JW SAY/USE it as a "support" for their false teaching that "only 144,000" go to heaven (versus ALL good people). The VERY false accusation that the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, would prohibit ANY good person from going to heaven (false, because that would be UNRIGHTEOUSNESS on His part!) notwithstanding... it's also false just on the basis of it's logic. Let me show you:

THEY teach that only 144,000 go to heaven; however, such ones "go"... because they are the "righteous", yes? Yet, to be righteous... is to be GOOD. Hence, per their teaching the 144,000 go to heaven... BECAUSE they ARE good. Following? So, in keeping with THEIR teaching, that "only 144,000" go to heaven... and their assertion that such ones ARE "good" (i.e., righteous)... such ones GO... because of Christ's death... yes?

Okay, then.

Now, YOUR argument (which is correct) is that he opened the way INTO heaven (the Most Holy)... for EVERYONE (of those who actually gain entrance). Regardless of whether it's 144,000... or more... perhaps even everyone who ever lived. The ONLY reason they can/DO get entry... is BECAUSE he came down and died FOR such ones.

If, however, one were to take the comment just on the basis of LOGIC... when looking at the teachings of the WTBTS... the statement is TRUE. Because, based on THEIR teaching, ONLY the 144,000 ARE "good."

And so, looking at their teaching:

Only good people go to heaven
Only "anointed" JWs go to heaven
Thus, only "anointed" JWs are good.
Yet, Christ came down and died... so that "anointed" JWs could go to heaven.
Therefore, Christ came down and died... so that ALL good people (i.e., ALL "anointed JWs") could go to heaven.


You see? And this is why I often have so much... pity, yeah, but sometimes even a bit of utter flabbergastation (my word) as to the (so-called) "intelligence" of... Jehovah's Witnesses. They THINK they are SO smart, yet they often say things... and even worse, often don't even have a CLUE as to WHAT they're saying... that NEGATES what they are trying to claim!

To give you an example of what I mean, I used to know a (former) JW "brother" who had just come out but still held onto the JW "way" of thinking. He had a daughter who, unfortunately, had 4 or so children by 2-4 different men. I do not share this to judge HER, so please don't think this is about that. It isn't. Anyway, this man was unable to accept his daughter's children. One day, he and I were talking and what he said blew my MIND (but what I said in return blew HIS even more!). When I asked him why he was having such a hard time accepting them, his response was that he didn't really know who the father of each child TRULY was, and so how did he know if he was even the grandfather?? And he said this with a very strong air of self-righteousness. How as he supposed to love these children... when he wasn't even sure if he was their grandfather?

I was blown away. I thought, "Huh??? What then...??!!" I mean, I couldn't believe he even HAD such a thought. Because, as I said to him:

"Brother, I don't understand. Regardless of WHO the childrens' FATHERS are... they are the children of YOUR DAUGHTER. And so STILL... YOUR grandchildren. Even if the father's wanted to dispute their paternity, there is NO WAY she can deny MATERNITY. And so, whether you all know who their PATERNAL grandfather it, you CERTAINLY know who their MATERNAL grandfather is. You!"

I mean, I was flabbergasted that this man thought, that because he wasn't sure who the FATHERS of the children were, he wasn't sure if HE was their grandfather!

What blew my mind even more... was seeing the "light" go on in HIS eyes... when REALIZED the truth of what I had just said! Blew HIS mind. But blew MINE because I couldn't fathom HOW he had even come to THINK as he had, that perhaps the children weren't HIS grandchildren, although by his DAUGHTER... because there was question as to who their fathers were!

How does one THINK like that???? I truly did not and do not understand.

And so this matter, here. And a LOT of Jehovah's Witnesses "think" like this. Not as to who their grandchildren are/aren't, etc., but like as in similarly. The PROCESS. As do a lot of EX-Jehovah's Witnesses, as I observed on other sites over the past 20 years or so. Stuff that just makes absolutely NO sense. Couldn't add up no matter HOW you slice it. And they say such things ALL the time. Like the gentleman who recently visited me.

Yes, I know, I know... there are those who think what I say/share makes no sense, either. But that's simply what they THINK; they cannot, however, make a logical... heck, reasonable... argument to the contrary.

Anyway, as you can see, the lack of SENSE, let alone logic... in this particular assertion (by your friend)... when held up to the "light" of the teachings of the WTBTS as to "who" DOES go to heaven... is just... ridiculous. If their "good" "anointed" folks do, and all of their "anointed" go... and they go because Christ came down and died for them... then "Jesus'" coming down and dying was NOT for nothing. It was for THEM.

Please... tell him that, for ME, next time you see him.

Peace to you... and this is what you get when you mix pain meds with posting after a day of work and an evening of school... so your patience (if you got to this point), is GREATLY appreciated - LOLOLOL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:08 pm 
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:8O
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my wife forbids me to speak
:8O

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:10 pm 
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:8O :8O
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But, again, I couldn't say anything.
:8O :8O

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:11 pm 
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! O-
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so much wrong with that statement that I want to scream out !


And you canNOT because why is that again?O-

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Ok . . . I've been mulling over how to respond to anyone who thinks I'm a wuss for honoring my wife's strong request for me not to speak about my feelings about certain WTBTS teachings, or anything else of a spiritual / religious nature.

Quote:
Not trying to hurt your feelings, dear one. Rather, just trying to help YOU save your life... and possibly hers'/their's. As part of YOUR body, she OWE it to you to hear you out. Just she/JWs/the WTBTS teach non-Jewish that THEY should hear their JW mates out.

She doesn't respect you and certainly not your faith. Sure, the WTBTS may be teaching her that it's okay not to. However, by your silence even as to OTHERS erroneous beliefs, you might be teaching her that it's okay, too. In doing so... you may find that you are CONTRIBUTING to HER error/sin. Same as if you remained quiet and/or even HELPED her when she lied, stole, blasphemed, etc.


I have tried to speak to her, but it ends up in her yelling at me to shut up and covering her ears. Literally. There is NO POINT to this. If she does not want to hear, she does not want to hear. She forbids me to speak of it with her.

s-Kally, your reaction is the same as my reaction. I cannot sit down and talk to the one person who is supposed to support me through thick and thin. It causes much emotional anguish for me. If I can't even speak in my own home, then what's the point of staying? I certainly am not going to stay quiet for the rest of my life.


Also, I'm a little surprised y'all focused on the word "good". Let's leave the word "good" out of it, and it will make my point clearer. I think Kim got it right when she pointed out some believe that "good" people go to heaven and "bad" people go to hell. Good or bad wasn't the focus of my issue. The focus was on the negating of Christ's sacrifice. We can reword it: 'if everyone who does good things goes to heaven, then Jesus coming down and dying in our behalf was for nothing'.

My flabbergastation (love that word, Shel!) was that our Lord's sacrifice could even be thought of as being for nothing on the point of who does or does not go to heaven. The only time I'm aware of that his sacrifice could be negated is if righteousness could be declared through law versus grace / undeserved kindness (Gal 2:21), and, of course, that's is simply not possible.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:16 pm 
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I have tried to speak to her, but it ends up in her yelling at me to shut up and covering her ears. Literally. There is NO POINT to this. If she does not want to hear, she does not want to hear. She forbids me to speak of it with her.



I don't think anyone was worried about you not talking to your wife about these things. If you wife does not want you to talk about faith/bible/etc... with her, then I think you should respect that. Christ does not force himself upon anyone, so neither do we who serve Him. You can still witness by EXAMPLE. Mind you, if she comes to YOU and starts talking about these things, then you are well within your rights to respond. Including if she also starts talking to others about these things, with you present. She cannot 'forbid' you to talk to her, but then talk to you and expect you to remain silent.

In any case, I think the problem was that you allowed your wife to silence you from talking to OTHERS about faith, Christ, God, the bible, etc. That is her silencing you from giving witness to others and serving Christ in those situations... as long as you are allowing it, that is.

So, unless I am mistaken, the objections were to THAT. Because in the above scenario, you did not respond to your family member and his error, because of your wife's demands.


Gotta run and get my son, but that is what I heard and felt, so hopefully that sheds some understanding on it for you!

Peace to you Leaving,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Right on, dear Tam's ( peace, luv! )... and although I can't speak for anyone but myself, dear LQ ( peace to you, as well, dear brother! )... I totally got YOUR point. S' why I didn't comment as to it but as to what dear Tam's stated and then to the person's own negation of his claim by what he SAID and BELIEVES. I commented due to the flabbergastinality of it.

S' all.

Peace, dear ones!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:32 pm 
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The only time I'm aware of that his sacrifice could be negated is if righteousness could be declared through law versus grace / undeserved kindness (Gal 2:21), and, of course, that's is simply not possible.


Yes, I agree also with you. Sorry that I got sidetracked in my response at the start.


Peace again!


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