xjwsforChrist

On her "Conflation" thread, dear AnneB (peace, luv!) reminded me of something that always confuzzled me while a JW. It just didn't stand up to logic, let alone "sound reasoning." I now understand it was this issue that allowed me to here when my Lord revealed to me the LIE as to the timing of the "separating of the sheep and the goats," which period the WTBTS changed after I was compelled to write to them and challenge their timing. Previously, "we" were "in" the "separating work," but the chart of verses my dear Lord gave me showed that that could not be, not given the WTBTS' own timeline.

In responding to dear AnneB, I started to include:

- "The Judgment" being an event done by Christ on his return (... which is ridiculous itself, as since he supposedly "returned in 1914" that event should have already started,, so what's the hold up?), versus an event done by JAH Himself, more than 1,000 years AFTER the return of Christ (which return is AFTER the GT has ended, yet, the WTBTS teaches GT hasn't even stated yet... BUT Christ HAS returned... how the hell does THAT "add up" so, yeah, go figure as to their "reasoning" on THAT one...)
etc...

While I was typing that, though, my dear Lord reminded me of the WTBTS'... well, I can't even call it STUPID logic... 'cause there's absolutely NO logic to be found in it, at ALL... so I'll say stupid "REASONING"... TOTALLY attempts to undermined TRUTH but is undermined BY truth. To wit, Logic Statement No. 1:

. Per the BIBLE, Christ returns "immediately AFTER the great tribulation (of those days) has ended" - Matthew 24:29-31

. Per the WTBTS, Christ returned "in 1914"

. IF, though, Christ returned in 1914... THEN, per the BIBLE... the "great tribulation" has already come and gone (because it is BEFORE my Lord's return! His return is, per the BIBLE... immediately AFTER the "great tribulation"!)

THEREFORE...

. IF Christ returned in 1914, and the GT has concluded (because it concludes before he returns), THEN THEIR teaching of a GT in the FUTURE... MUST be false. MUST be.

Do ya'll SEE?

Yet, the WTBTS is [u]still preaching... and scaring the hell outta people with[/i]... the threat of "the COMING great tribulation." Given the LOGIC shown above, such threat CANNOT exist, let alone be imminent.


But...

"Oh, no, dear Shelb, wait! They don't teach that he RETURNED in 1914 - only that he SAT DOWN on his THRONE and began to RULE in 1914!"

Really. Are "you" SURE (you who would ask that, but not necessarily anyone HERE). Because if that is "only" what they teach... HOW, then, did he DO THE SO-CALLED "INSPECTION" claimed to have been done by the WTBTS as to THEM... so as to find THEM the "faithful and discreet slave" in 1918???? You know, the "inspection" done of the "faithful and discreet slave, who the Master... ON HIS RETURN"... supposedly found THEM to be???

If the "great tribulation" ENDS... immediately BEFORE his return (his return being "immediately AFTER the great tribulation... has ENDED")... then it HAD to have ENDED... BEFORE 1914!

Yes?? Yes!

The "great tribulation" occurs BEFORE Christ returns, based simply on the WORDS "immediately AFTER" found at Matthew 24:29.

And so the ONLY conclusion(s) can BE:

On the one hand - IF Christ returned in 1914... THEN the Great Tribulation has ALREADY occurred... and ended.

CONCLUSION (and there can be no other in this instance): If the WTBTS is right and Christ returned in 1914/1918... then there can be NO PENDING GT... per WTBTS teaching.


On the other hand - IF the WTBTS is right... and the great tribulation has NOT occurred YET... THEN... based on Matthew 24:29-31... Christ... CANNOT HAVE RETURNED in 1914/1918.

CONCLUSION: The GT has NOT occurred yet... therefore, Christ... CANNOT have returned yet.

In WHICH cases - IF Christ DIDN'T (actually) return in 1914/1918... THEN the WHOLE WTBTS (self) designation as the FDS is FALSE.

CONCLUSION (and there can be no other in this instance): Christ has NOT returned, yet... because the GT has not occurred yet... therefore, the WTBTS/its GB is NOT the "Faithful and Discreet Slave."


ReGARDless... you CANNOT have BOTH (well, three). You CANNOT have:

1. Christ having returned... but the great tribulation NOT having even occurred yet;
2. The great tribulation pending... but Christ having already returned;
3. Christ NOT having returned... yet, having "inspected" (his) belongings and appointed a "faithful and discreet slave."

You CANNOT. Not to mention... he is only to return... ONCE. Not twice, as the WTBTS has him doing (once in 1914, then again at some later point). Their explanation for THAT is that he returns first in SPIRIT, then in a physical sense. What they forget to TELL folks is that he returned IN SPIRIT... when he was resurrected from the dead. At that time, he returned in flesh AND spirit. S'how he was able to walk through walls/doors... disappear right before their eyes... ascend...

The NEXT time, however, EVERY eye will see him. EVERY eye DIDN'T, however, in 1918. Per the WTBTS' own admission (based on their RIDICULOUS false teaching)... only THEY "discerned" him. What the heck happened to EVERY eye?? Oh, right... that's for the SECOND time he returns. Question as to THAT is: what's he gonna do THAT time... since, supposedly, when he returns he conducts an inspection? You know, that inspection he supposedly ALREADY CONDUCTED?

Totally "666." Stuff "adding up" that doesn't add up. A true 2 + 2 = whatever we say it does, equation.

But numbers do NOT lie, dear ones. Their summations can be lies, yes. Manipulated to APPEAR to add up to something they do not. But no matter WHO says 2 + 2 = 16, the TRUTH is that 2 + 2 = 4 (you know what I mean, those of you who are pedantic, nerdy, geeky, technically-anal binary-focused numbers crunchers! LOLOL!).

It is a lie. Their whole "Christ returned in 1914, inspected and chose US in 1918, but ya'll better get ready and look out for the 'coming great tribulation'" melarkey. A complete and total lie, at least as to the first two... and the basis on which they claim to be who they claim to be.

You actually might wanna share THAT logic and TRUTH with the dear Wife, dear LQ (peace to you, luv!). And anyone else who has a loved one so enamored with the WTBTS they can't SEE the truth... or even the logic... due to the rafter-sized LIES that are in their faces. Share it. Because it's infallible LOGIC, if they can't handle the TRUTH.

Peace... to you, all... and thank YOU, dear AnneB, for the original topic!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar, who apologizes for seeming to repeat myself, here... and also, above ALL, thanks my dear Lord, King, Master, and Savior, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... the One whose name PRAISES JAH!... for reminding me of it!

Ya I figured that out a while ago,your dead on..
It`s absolute WBT$ Stupidity..
JW`s won`t notice,they have a new distraction..

......

If Jesus wants to get a JW`s Attention..
He needs to come out with His Own Line of Souvenirs..

..............................Didn`t Anyone Tell The JW`s..
.........................I Wasn`t Nailed To An Umbrella??!!..
...................................
............................................................................................OUTLAW

_________________

There you go trying to make sense out of what is senseless. LOL!


Actually, I tried to talk to my wife about all of this when the WT article came out. She wouldn't hear any of what I had to say.

Let's have a little fun, shall we?

Based on the July 15, 2013 WT, which is the latest of this mess they've created, no longer is C.T. Russell part of the FDS. No, he was equivalent to John the Baptizer, a forerunner. Thus, Malachi 3:1-4 has become yet another one of WT's famed dual prophecies. One would have to get past this one before even addressing how many times Christ comes.

w13 7/15 pp. 10-11 pars. 5,6:


This has got to be the most ridiculous explanation I've read yet on this subject.

Then comes a bit of revisionist history which most JWs will never catch:

Just an example of how they bury their lies under a mountain of words, articles, rules, work, 'new light', more lies, books, magazines, more articles... and as Outlaw said above, distractions.


I might print that show of logic in the OP out for someone, myself.



Peace to you,
your sister and servant and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

It blows the whole 1914 out of the water .....AGAIN!!!!!!

They rely so heavily on this date to determine their foundation which of course is crumbling but if folks could just see this, well maybe!!!!!!

Thank you so much for sharing, and all praise to our father Jah and his son Jaheshua for allowing us to understand this so simply.
Love and peace to you all, your sister and fellow slave of our Lord Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim

I am astounded as I re-read WT's claims.



Larger fulfillment? Larger than the reason for the "messenger" in the first place? Why was this messenger necessary? Let's let the same prophecy answer the question.

“Look! I am sending to you E·li′jah the prophet before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah. And he will turn the hearts of fathers back toward sons, and the hearts of sons back toward fathers; so that I may not come and strike the earth, devoting it to destruction.” (Malachi 4:5,6)

That was John's purpose, who, according to Christ, was "Elijah who is to come" (Matt 11:13,14), the very fulfillment of this prophecy (though he likely did not realize it).

Has the WTBTS ever claimed that C.T.Russell was Elijah? As far as I know, no. The Laodicean messenger, yes, but Elijah? Not that I'm aware of. Might as well have, though, because they pretty much say he's the same as John the Baptist, a forefunner.

Oh, wait... I am WRONG! They HAVE claimed there is a modern-day Elijah:
w07 12/15 Highlights From the Book of Malachi


Now, this makes no sense in light of the 2013 article and the "new light". Based on the 2007 description, "Elijah" today is "the faithful and discreet slave," the "class of anointed Christians". But, "the faithful and discreet slave" is no longer the entire class of anointed Christians now. It's solely the GB. Thus, the 2007 description of Elijah in the modern day would have to be the GB. However, the GB was not described to be the forefunner. C.T. Russell now has that label as he was demoted from being part of "the faithful and discreet slave". I think WTBTS is going to have to come out with "new light" to show that C.T. Russell is the modern day counterpart of "Ellijah who is to come." They have no choice but to revise their definition of this modern day "Elijah".



Of course, I do not believe there is any modern-day counterpart beyond the original fulfillment. I do not buy into the dual prophecy / larger fulfillment bit of what Malachi wrote. It would be presumptuous on my part to do so since Christ ALREADY identified John as "Elijah who is to come", thus fulfilling that prophecy.

And since when does the wts care OR TEACH what Christ - the Truth - has to say?

Those who follow the wts also follow ITS adulterous ways. Unfortunately. Even sometimes after they leave her, but carry her 'ways' with them into whatever new 'religion' or belief they embrace next. Forgive me, but I just finished reading another forum from those who came out of a 'harlot' only to continue in her ways, carrying some truth, but surrounding that with lies (albeit given in ignorance, believed to be truth). And why? Because they are listening to their own interpretations and/of the bible... OVER CHRIST!


"YOU diligently search the scriptures because you think that by them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify to ME... yet you refuse to come to ME to have life!"


And why would anyone turn to something other than Christ... especially knowing (or at least saying) that Christ is the Truth... UNLESS you do not truly believe (or yet KNOW) that He is LIVING, that He speaks, that HE teaches and leads those who listen to Him into ALL truth?


Stop looking somewhere else for the truth that you KNOW is Christ. Look to, listen to, come to, obey and put your faith in HIM... the LIVING Spirit, the LIVING Word, the LIVING Truth! His 'water' is PURE. Not muddied with lies and misunderstandings and interpretations of men.




May all of you who are thirsting and seeking be given ears so as to hear the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride (His Body) say to you, "COME! Take the free gift of the water of life!"


Peace and love to you all, as Christ gives these things,
your sister and your servant, and a fellow slave of Christ,
tammy


P.S... But really good find, Leaving!


**edited to add a clarification in purple, above

They can't, and won't, see The Lie because of...low self-esteem, some of which is more properly called Humility.

Think back to when you (and this includes born-ins) learned "The Truth." You were learning a language (the so-called Pure Language of Truth) as well as a set of doctrines. As I discovered, it was virtually impossible to discuss the doctrine without using the "Pure Language." The meanings assigned to what seemed to be "normal" words, when used by WT/JW's, lead in another direction. Try to remember what it was like to wrap the "Pure Language" around the convoluted doctrines...and then to keep up with (and make "sense" of) any "New Light" or "Deeper Things" that came your way. If you can't remember how that worked for you, then think of a child brought (adopted) into a multi-lingual home; that child has to absorb a new grammar framework plus a new vocabulary with all its nuances, and at the same time to make itself understood and to comprehend what is being said, all the while trying to keep up with other life functions. How easy to be overwhelmed!

JW's are not, as some have speculated, the dregs of humanity, the needy, the unbalanced. Most of them are just ordinary folks who mean to do right toward God and their fellow humans, soooo... They try..and they try..but the ground keeps shifting, although WT doesn't point this out very clearly (if at all).

Now, what's the average, well-meaning human to do? Feel inadequate, that's what! On the good days, when comprehension of "The Truth" is the only thing on the plate, thoughtful people accept apparent contradictions with a humble spirit, filing away their questions and doubts to be resolved in the future. On the bad days though, the days that are filled with family and work responsibilities, health and economic issues, as well as "Theocratic Studies", the average JW feels just that, "Average", overwhelmed, not up to the task of comprehending. Thus he or she begins to feel inadequate, unable to take in the teachings without assistance, and that leads to a dispirited JW and to a system where some are "better qualified" than others, almost a Clergy/Laity class distinction.

Once a person, righteously or unrighteously, feels inadequate, (that is, harbors low self-esteem) how can such a person "see"? They can't. If someone attempts to show them, such "seeing" is resisted (because of uncertainty that it is "in harmony with The Truth"). If the humble one tries to resolve discrepancies through personal study, they'll go 'round and 'round, digging deeper and deeper into WT literature and the NWT, and getting nowhere (because the literature, which is viewed as the standard, keeps shifting).

From my perspective, the only time a person really "sees" is after they get out of "The Lie", and that usually happens as a result of some kind of judicial action. A lot of JC's are unjust and unrighteous (which JW's don't know), so a person wakes up just a little when such happen. They're still not sure, still thinking the situation is unique and/or misunderstood. A still-in who perceives some doctrinal shift or some misapplication of scripture may walk away, but in most cases the heart still isn't settled; it takes unrighteousness (again, usually judicial action) to firm up their though processes, to make them really decide.

All a body can do while this is going on is to watch, wait, and pray. It's not imperative that the JW (or any other captive) implement change immediately. "Food at the proper time" indicates that a person has to be in a receptive condition, and that's individual; it's not the same time and not even the same "food" for everyone. Growth can be imperceptable, but given a window every 20 years, for instance, and growth can be seen clearly. Taking the looooong view is the course of Wisdom.

"Do not be anxious over anything..." Even if a person never "sees" and spends a lifetime a JW (or other captive), it's OK. It's all going to come out all right. Along with many other things, the WT teaches incorrectly about resurrection and the life to come. It is written that death, not people, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, indicating that all have been saved. It is also written that Christ hands over a perfected people to his Father, that all things will be restored so that God can be all things to everyone. How many is "everyone"? It's every single one. However long it takes is how long it will take, but everyone will make it to The Kingdom. Everyone. It's a foregone conclusion, one I wasn't taught when first hearing "Come, let everyone take life's water free." The "let" in this case means "I'm going to see to it that no person is impeded." And once a person drinks...

It will take more than this aeon (age), but it's a certainty. Now that's Good News!

Great thread, I am impressed!! Critical thinking exposes the Watchtower more and more. Obviously that's why the WT doesn't want their members doing any of that critical thinking or research outside of their publications. When you are out of that Org. the truth becomes brighter and brigher.

I am learning so much here, I never really worried about doctrine before as I was kind of born into the religion. Only 3 when my family became witnesses. I just believed.

I have a Question, maybe its a stupid one? Is Jesus really going to return in the flesh??

_________________

Oh, dear. I cannot agree with that.

Good morning dear AnneB and peace to you,

I have a question. Although I do realize that Death as an entity will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed...
What about before this when those at the end of the 1,000 yr reign, Gog ( the goats/ people that are cut off from the kingdom) and Magag ( the wicked rebellious spirit creatures) that circle the beloved city that has come down (New Jerusalem) and then " Fire" out of heaven destroys them ALL? This being Armaggedon? How are they ALL saved??

Revelation 20:7-10


There is also the second resurrection in Revelation 20:11-15 those that have died that did not belong to CHRIST as his body resurrected after armaggedon. If they were found NOT written in the book of Life they were hurled into " the lake of fire". How are THEY all saved ?

Just asking,
Love your sister and fellow slave of our Lord Jaheshua MischaJah, Kim

Good question. I was going to point out that "every eye will see him" (Rev 1:7) and I started to write that humans cannot see spirit creatures, when I remembered that there were times recorded in the Bible when humans DID see "angels" and even spirit creatures, such as when Stephen saw the Lord at God's right hand (Acts 7:59), when the ass saw the angel (Num 22:27), when an angel appeared to Gideon (Judges 6:11,12), when an angel appeared to the wife of Manoah (Judges 13:3-21), and more.

That last one was interesting, because the account tells us that, in her view, it was the appearance of an angel (Judges 13:6) and Manoah later realized it WAS an angel (Judges 13:21). Even Gideon claimed he saw the angel "face-to-face". (Judges 6:22).

So, in the flesh? I cannot say.

Revelation 1:7 is interesting. Of course, WTBTS says that "every eye will see him" means discerning that he is present invisibly.

From the Insight book:


But, what they neglect to take into account is the rest of verse seven. This verse, in it's entirety, reads:

Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

I highlighted that part about "and those who pierced him". Frankly, the way it's written in the RNWT makes it sound like every eye will see Christ AND those who pierced him, as if those ALSO return with Christ. But that makes no sense. What makes more sense to me is that every eye will see him, INCLUDING those who pierced him. The Greek word kai which WTBTS translates to "and" can mean "and, even, also, namely". Thus, the NIV translates it:

Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

This tells me that WTBTS' teaching is incorrect, that not only will discerning ones see him return, but even those who were complicit in his murder would, at least their descendents (and to me, that would include any antichrists, but I could be wrong.) This could possibly be a reference to natural Jews alive when he returns who have NOT sided with him. Again, I could be wrong (and probably am).

In addition, the part, "and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him" indicates that the entire world will know he has returned, not just some few elite ones who discern his invisible presence. Why would anyone "beat themselves in grief because of him" if they have no idea he's returned????

Perhaps I did not get far enough, but I don't really remember this during my study. I have heard others discuss this of course. Perhaps you or someone could remind me with an example of what jws call the pure language?

It is a lie of course, and so I must state what is true, as Christ teaches:

Truth is the pure language.




In addition to what JM said, which is exactly what the Spirit reminded me of when I read the above...it is also written that there will be some who are not permitted in the Kingdom, the goats (from the sheep and the goats parable).


So Christ Himself showed that there are those who will not enter the Kingdom just from the sheep and the goats, and also in the revelation He sent His angel to give to John, when after the thousand years those outside the Kingdom come against the camp that God loves and are themselves, devoured by fire that comes down from heaven.

In addition, at the judgment in the resurrection of the dead (the second resurrection):

"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

John is writing to us about what he SAW.


Not that it is for us to judge, or even to be anxious. Our Lord will not lose any who belong to Him, and the mercy of our Lord and His Father is GREAT.

Because there are those who belong to Him, who are of His Body (the 144000 of literal Israel and the Great Crowd of every nation/tribe/culture that no one can count - as all are invited!). These are those Christ gathers upon His return (those who have 'died' and those who are still living), with whom He shares his rule, granting them to be kings/priests in His Kingdom.

Then there are also the subjects of the Kingdom, the sheep (from the sheep and goats parable) who are invited INTO the Kingdom on the basis of the good they did to Christ, by doing good to even the least of his brothers. These prove that the law (of love) is in their hearts, because they do by nature the requirements of that law. These ones are not Christians/not of the Body of Christ - yet they too come into the Kingdom.

Then there is the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment, based on what they did as written in their books. Some of these too are resurrected to life - those whose names are written in His book of life, and also come into the Kingdom; and some are resurrected to judgment and the second death - those whose names are not written in His book of life.


And of course God may have mercy upon whomever He chooses.




Peace to you Anne,
your sister and servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I want to revise my question to read is Christ to return visibly. I didn't mean in the flesh as I am sure he will not return as a man biput as a spirit creature.