xjwsforChrist

YPPUPLLEH SAID:

Saw this in another thread and I wasn't familiar with this. Can anyone give references to this belief and from which Bible verses the Watchtower got their info from?

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To fear me is to love me....

Puppy (hell version puppy,that is)... From what i recall of my study, there are two verses from the bible, and a lot of commentary, that bring them to this.

One... Michael is an archangel... and they believe there can only be one archangel. One chief angel. Michael leads his angels against Satan and his angels. But Christ also leads the angels, so I think they connect the two from that. Because they do not think Michael can have one army, and Christ another army.

revelation 12:7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels

revelation 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him (Christ)

The nwt version might not have armies plural, because that would be counterproductive to their doctrine, I think.

Two... Christ leads his army of angels with the voice of an archangel. (hence making him the archangel.... of course the verse says withe the voice of an archangel, and the trumpet call of God... so unless they would be willing to make the same connection to the trumpet call of God, i don't see how this works)

1 Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

That is what I think they base the entire thing on. Jwfacts has some good info on this on his site too. I did not know they had flipflopped on this doctrine a couple times:


http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/revelation-daniel-prophetic-interpretation.php

It is about a third of the way down the page.

Peace,
tammy

YPPUPLLEH SAID

How interesting... I would not have made that leap

DING SAID

Of course, in Jude 9, Michael does not dare rebuke Satan directly; he leaves that to Jehovah.

Yet in Matthew 4, Jesus directly commands Satan to leave him and Satan obeys.

Moreover, Hebrews 1 says that God never called any angel His Son and says that Christ is superior to all the angels.

The WTS ignores these verses.

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID

Funny how the WT is against the Trinity doctrine because it is NOT explicit in the bible and yet advocate that Jesus was Michael even though THAT IS NOT explicit in the bible.
Even the passages they quote to "justify: their doctrine are so off, its not even funny.
Daniel for example, makes note that Michael is ONE of the chief Princes.
Implying that there is MORE than One chief prince/arch angel.

There is NOWHERE in the bible, OT or NT, that states that Christ is a created being or an angel, BUT there is a whole chapter stating that Christ is the word incarnate ( GOJ 1) and a whole Chapter stating that Christ is NOT an angel and FAR ABOVE any angel ( Hebrews 1).

Yes, to the ONE OF the chief priests.

I too, thought it was odd that they would denounce the trinity for not being biblical but then go ahead and make an even bigger extrapolation in the Jesus/Michael doctrine.

This is the biggest teaching that made joining such a big struggle for me. It did not fit. I could not wrap my head around it. There were also so many verses to contradict it. My study conductor would go home and talk it over with her husband, unable to understand why I just could not accept this.

I ended up finally thinking that they were wrong on this one, but I would just wait for them to receive 'new light'. There are so many things wrong with that thinking, lol, that I think it needs its own thread!

So um, yeah... Puppy, I would not have made that connection either

I kinda think they gave Jesus another identity and made it a certain doctrine in order to have a better defense against the teaching of the trinity. He can't be god... because he's Michael.

(I don't believe either, but that is besides the point as well)

Peace,
tammy

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID:

The Jesus is God thing is a view of Jesus's Nature not identity.
This is also something that the JW's get wrong.
Regardless of your feelings on the Trinity, it is a doctrine of shared nature and NOT shared identity.
If Jesus was begotten of God, Jesus is God, just as a human is Begotten of another Human.
The issue is that for JW's God = The Father so the confusion becomes:
If God = The Father and Jesus is God then Jesus = the Father.
Which goes against the Trinity doctrine.
If you are gonna criticize a doctrine, at least get it right, LOL !

JUSTMOM SAID

hello everyone

Yes the WTBS does believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel.

But this is not possible based on Hebrerws 1:4-6. Michael is an "arkangel" not "archangel" the society referring to only one as Jesus. And referring him in the category as an ANGEL.

Hebrews says "To which one of the ANGELS did he ever say: "You are my SON, I , today, I have become your father'? And again "I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. 6. But when he again brings His Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: And let all Gods angels do obesience to him."

ANGELS are not sons. They were created by Jah!

There is only ONE SON (Jaheshua) He was begotten (born)

Hope this helps some
Love and Peace to you all
justmom

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID:

Not to nitpick, but the correct translation of proskyneo in this case is not "obesience" but worship.

In Hebrews the word appears twice, In Hebrews 1:6 and Hebrews 11:21 and in IF the WT translated it as "obesience" first, then it should, following the rules of translation, do the same the second time, but they don't:
21 By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped leaning upon the top of his staff.

It doesn't work that way because the author of Hebrews would have remained consistent in his use of the word proskyneo.

The WT changes it so that Jesus is NEVER worshiped.

JUSTMOM SAID

Paul

thanks for that..... Your right! was quoting NWT

Our Lord deserves worship!

justmom

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID:

The Wt is very adamant that Christ is NOT worshiped and never was.
Hence the changing of the translation when it relates to Christ, BUT keeping it as worship when it relates to God OR even Satan!
The thing is that they do NOT maintain a consistency within the same authour or even the same letter/book.
A big no-no in terms of translating something.

AGUEST SAID:

Greetings, dear ones (peace to you all!). Can't stay - gotta run an errand, but before I do I wanted to share two prophetic accounts that show Michael and my Lord are NOT the same. The first is with regards to Daniel's vision, as recorded at Daniel 10:4-21, and the second contrasts and corroborates at Revelation 1:10, 11; 12-15; 4:1, 2.

"Now on the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, that is, the Tigris, I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. Daniel 10:4-6

Is there anywhere else where someone fitting this description is mentioned? Yes. Revelation 1:12-15:

"... having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like burnished bronze, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters..."

Daniel goes on...

"And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision; but a great terror fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Therefore I was left alone when I saw this great vision, and no strength remained in me; for my vigor was turned to frailty in me, and I retained no strength. Yet I heard the sound of his words; and while I heard the sound of his words I was in a deep sleep on my face, with my face to the ground.

"Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.

"Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

Who was this "man" that Daniel saw? Well, it certainly wasn't Michael, because the "man" referred to Michael as coming to "help" him. Daniel explains:

"When he had spoken such words to me, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, “My lord, because of the vision my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me.”

What did Daniel mean? He was speaking as you often see me "speak" here, in a "respectful" tone. He was referring to himself when he said, "this servant of my lord." He was referring to CHRIST, as "my Lord." He was asking how he, a servant of his Lord, Christ, could even be speaking WITH his Lord, Christ.

He goes on...

"Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. And he said, “O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!” (See John 20:19, 26)

So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, “Let [b]my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

Daniel only had... and recognized... ONE Lord, dear ones. (John 13:13; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:5; )

"Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince."

So, this account shows Daniel speaking with someone who refers TO Michael, and so is NOT Michael. This One... is the same One that John saw and referred to... Christ, the Lord of both Daniel and John.

Now, let's look at Michael just a tad closer. The one that Daniel saw and John referred to had a voice like many waters/a multitude. What, though, is Michael's voice like? Like that of OTHER angels: a TRUMPET!

"On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" - Revelation 1:10

"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth, by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!" Revelation 8:13

"The revelation of [Jesus] Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel[/u] to his servant John..." Revelation 1:1

So, what JOHN was depicting is this:

While in spirit, he FIRST heard a voice "like a trumpet" that told him to write in a scroll and sent it to the seven congregations. When he turned around to try and see who was speaking to him, he saw, NOT the one with the voice of a trumpet, but ANOTHER... whose voice was "like many waters." This second person is Christ, who gave John the contents that was to go in the scroll to those congregations.

When my Lord was DONE... John was THEN given the Revelation by my Lord's angel, Michael:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Revelation 4:1

Michael is the remaining one of the two cherubs/angels OF THE ARK... hence, ARK angel (the other was his twin, BeliJah'El... who did NOT stand "fast" with the Truth and did NOT keep his face "toward" the Cover/Propitiatory... which is the Christ - Exodus 25:17-21; Ezekiel 28:14; 1 John 2:2).

Michael is an angel of Christ's, who job it was... and is... to protect the "Cover" that IS Christ. Along with the one now called "Satan" and "Devil," he was to "stand fast" in his position, with his face ALWAYS toward the Cover... Christ. He did, has, and always will (Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9).

Unlike BeliJah'El (which means, "Without JAH as [his] God"), who did NOT "stand fast" with the Truth (John 8:44; 14:6; Ezekiel 28:17) and so has no accord, harmony, sharing, or agreement... WITH Christ (2 Corinthians 6:15).

That Christ returns with "a trumpet's voice"... or "the voice of a trumpet"... only means that he will be ANNOUNCED... when that return occurs. As the return/arrival/entry of ANY king should be. It does NOT mean that HE has such a voice... or will announce himself.

The PEOPLE announced him once (as they did Joseph, who depicts him) and will again when they come through the "tribulation". However, the ANGELS will announce him... when he returns to gather his chosen ones. Exodus 41:43; John 12:12, 13; Revelation 7:9; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16).

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you ALL!

Servant to the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

SA

PAULSACRAMENTO SAID:

Well done Shel
I remember mentioning that over on JWN, how John make sit clear of TWO voices.
Also, since it stars with John mentioning that this Revelation was given to Him By Our Lord we need to make clear that:
ALL revelation given by Christ and that, at rimes, it is given THROUGH one of His messengers, sometimes Gabriel, sometimes Michael.
By all revelation is FROM CHrist ( well, From Our Father via Christ of course).

? SAID:

I have not read all of the posts in this thread, but here are a couple of thoughts:

Jude 1:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

If Michael is Jesus why did he not rebuke Satan. Jesus certainly did, but Michael would not.


In Daniel when Michael wrestles the prince of Persia for 21 days, he has to struggle, but when Jesus was confronted with Satan the head of all the evil princes, he rebukes him with the word and he leaves. Is the prince of Persia more powerful than Satan? Then why could Michael not do what Jesus was able to since he is suppose to be the same person?

Good points!
Peace,
tammy