xjwsforChrist

Rev 20:5 says: "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.)" (RNWT)
The WT explanation is that "come to life" basically means to gradually be brought to perfection during the 1,000 years and by the end of it, they will be fully perfect. They do NOT believe that it means the second resurrection is at the end of the 1,000 years. They believe the second resurrection will start after Armageddon, and the first resurrection before that (when Christ arrives).

Their reasoning is because Rev 20:4 says: "And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge." They say, 'judge whom?' If the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the 1,000 years are ended, then whom are they judging? Of course, they feel that those who survive the GT and Armageddon are already judged worthy of life.

Who are they judging? The most obvious answer I can see is found in Luke 28:30: "...to sit on thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel."

Who is granted to rule as kings and sit on thrones? Seems like those of the first resurrection. Whom would they include? The 144,000 only? Is that a literal number? I'm not certain anymore. The 144,000 are never linked to those who are to rule as kings. At Rev 5:8,9, it describes these more like the description of the great crowd (from every tribe, nation, tongue, etc.) This doesn't necessarily mean the link doesn't exist... it's just not explicitly spelled out as such.

What does "come to life" really mean here? I think it means the second resurrection. If that's the case, then wouldn't those in the second resurrection have to be judged, too? And wouldn't that judgement happen AFTER the 1,000 years end? And who judges them at that time?

Peace Leaving!



Which doesn't make much sense does it? 'Come to life' how? By what means? Christ is the one who GIVES life. It is funny (sad funny) that they will teach this (that people 'come to life' after learning with them for a thousand years... the whole taking in knowledge thing... but they stop people from doing the thing that Christ told us to do, and in NOT doing what Christ told us to do, they are also NOT doing what God said to do: Listen to My Son.

"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Our forefathers ate the manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:53-58 (NIV)



Like most things that I have read from them, there is some truth in what they believe, but that truth is covered with a lie, so that the actual truth is hidden and people are deceived into following a false christ/false prophet.

The second resurrection DOES start after Armageddon. But Armageddon comes at the end of the thousand years; not before the thousand years as the wts teaches.

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - God and Magog - to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

That is Armageddon.

Compare with the earlier verse from Revelation 16, which also uses the actual term 'Armageddon' (although that is not the battle name, but the place where the battle occurs).

"Then I saw three evil spiirts that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are spirits of demons peforming miraculous signs and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for battle on the great day of God Almighty." (Rev 16:13,14)

and

"Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon." (Rev 16:16)




(The great tribulation is what occurs just before Christ comes, and the wts may mistake and perhaps even teach that AS being armageddon (or teach that these are the events that are happening immediately before armageddon), at least for a spell, and unfortunately, bringing people back to them in fear that the wts was right and keeping others IN them for the same reason. I am not sure, myself, what they teach about the 'great tribulation', though. So my understanding on what the wts teaches could be wrong.)

The first resurrection also DOES happen when Christ arrives, when Christ gathers all who belong to Him to himself. Those who have 'fallen asleep' and so are under the altar and told to wait a little longer (Rev 6:9-11)... as well as those who are still alive when He returns, who are caught up to Him in the sky and 'changed', as Paul wrote about. Then the thousand years.

Then Armageddon comes at the end of the thousand years. Then the second resurrection and judgement of the dead, according to their own books that are opened - some resurrected to life (those whose names are written in the book of life), and some to judgment.

So in a quick summary:

There is the great tribulation.
There is the first resurrection (when Christ returns), the wedding of the bride and bridegroom.
The establishment of the Kingdom, Satan is abyssed, the sheep and goats are separated by Christ from the nations, and the sheep enter the Kingdom, and the thousand years.
Armageddon (when those (gog and magog) outside the kingdom are deceived by satan who has been released, to come AGAINST the Kingdom)
The resurrection of the dead (second resurrection), some to life, and some to judgment (lake of fire/second death)




Yeah, their reasoning does not make sense to me. But they do teach that even if you 'made it' through armageddon, you could still 'fall' and be judged and put to death. You have to be perfect the full 'thousand years' to be considered worthy of eternal life. So first you have to be worthy to survive (their version of ) armageddon, then you have to work and be worthy of surviving past the thousand years? And, it seems, you have to do it of your own accord... just by learning. Like somehow you can rid yourself of sin, without Christ?

I found that timeline EXHAUSTING when I studied with them. Be perfect (which to them is according to obeying their rules/laws; and NO ONE is saved by the 'law') for your entire life, and then do it again for an additional thousand years?



Luke 22:30 you mean...

I THINK this means (at least in part) to rule with Christ, who shares His Kingdom. As Shelby recently shared - sitting on a throne... that is a seat of authority; which Christ shares. This is not the same as the judgment at the second resurrection, when the dead are resurrected and judged (by God).





Those in the first resurrection are granted to rule as kings and priests with Christ, yes. The literal number of 144 000 from each of the 12 tribes of (literal) Israel (Revelation 14 speaks of them going wherever the lamb goes) and also those from every nation, tribe, tongue, etc... who are the Great Crowd. So that the two (Israel and Gentile) become ONE... in Christ. Since the Kingdom rule was offered to Israel first (in honor of the promise to Abraham and the covenant with God)... and then when most of Israel rejected Christ... offered and open to anyone who would put faith in Christ.

I'm not sure if it is spelled out specifically anywhere. I just do hear the truth that Israel has a remnant reserved for God, and these ones would not be placed UNDER those of the nations who also come to God. They are made one. Plus we KNOW that the apostles ARE Israel, and that the first who followed Christ were also from Israel.



Think... "I am the Resurrection and the Life". So that coming to life is being resurrected to life. Those in the first resurrection also 'came to life', by means of Christ being IN them, and resurrecting them TO life. Those in the second resurrection... these are still 'dead' unless/until they are also given life, and all according to how they fare before the white throne and Him (God) seated on it. So some come to life (given a new body, those whose names are in the book of life); and some are resurrected to judgment and the lake of fire (which is the second death).

(although God may have mercy upon whomever He chooses)



Judgment IS for the second resurrection. They come before the throne (the great white throne and Him who is seated on it) Mind you, people are judged by their own words and deeds. Hence their 'books' are opened, and each is judged according to what they had done. (recording OF those words and deeds) "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened."

Note that John saw the DEAD standing before the throne. The sea and the earth and hades, etc, give up the dead in them, and they come before the throne. Some come to life, and some go to the second (eternal) death.

(There is no judgment for those who are in Christ. But when Christ establishes his kingdom, he does separate the nations (those who are alive at His coming, but who were not His brothers - as His brothers are already with Him) and He invites some IN to the Kingdom (as subjects of the Kingdom), and casts some into the darkness OUTSIDE the Kingdom. The sheep are invited in (those who did good to even the least of his brothers), and the goats outside. See the sheep and goats parable.)





Yes, that judgment occurs after the thousand years, after armageddon.


Hope that helps, and is not written to confusingly.


Peace to you,
your sister and servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You go Tammy!

Here's what I wrote:

LQ:

You might want to remember what the apostle Paul stated, that:

“[T]here is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous AND unrighteous.”

Those belonging to Christ are the ‘righteous’ mentioned here by Paul. These ‘righteous’ are those whom Christ comes to get ‘after the great tribulation,’ upon his return after that tribulation, as recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is not the same as Armageddon. This is the First Resurrection.

When Christ returns, he is NOT coming to destroy anyone or anything. He is coming to get his own. So mankind that is left (abandoned) on earth will continue as they will/are.

So when does the second resurrection occur? NOT DURING THE THOUSAND YEARS as the Society teaches. How do we know this? Because Death is NOT DESTROYED when Christ returns to gather his own, but continues ruling and thus killing even through the thousand years. And then AFTER the thousands years have ended and Death is destroyed, the Second Resurrection occurs and all the dead are brought to life then, just as Revelation 20:4 states. Death is not destroyed until after the thousand years. Thus, even during the thousand years people die.

Those who are resurrected in the Second Resurrection are then judged, either to gain life or to judgment and sent off to the Second Death—the Lake of Fire.

I hope this explains it well enough.

--Armando

Yep... Mistyped it.

Tammy and Armand, thank you for your explanations... they aligns more with what I think. I'm still confused as to Rev 20:4. Those of the first resurrection are granted authority to judge. Judge whom? This is during the 1,000 years. Are they simply observing people and actively writing people's deeds down in the 'books' (or scrolls) so that when the 1,000 years are over, what they've observed becomes the guideline by which the judgement really is at that time? (Rev 20:13). Or is there some sort of active judging going on?

This is the big hangup and the main reason WT believes the entire resurrection (first and second) are completed earlier in the 1,000 year period of time, so that those who are judging actually have someone TO judge.

Is this correct? Of the 'goats', it says this:

Matt 25:41-46: “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ Then they too will answer with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.

And:
Luke 17:22-30: Then he said to the disciples: “Days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, but you will not see it. And people will say to you, ‘See there!’ or, ‘See here!’ Do not go out or chase after them. For just as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another part of heaven, so the Son of man will be in his day. First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. But on the day that Lot went out of Sod′om, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.

Yes, that has given me questions too, Leaving...although I just assumed that this was because this lake of fire is where they are eventually going, the same as the devil and his angels. But not until the end of the thousand years, at Armageddon. Only just now that you have asked, and I have just now re-read that verse in what you wrote... but I heard it read instead like this:

"Go away from me, you who have been cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."

Now, I don't know the reasoning that scholars use to insert commas, so I don't know if it should be there or not... but the above reading helped me to SEE other than what it SEEMS to mean. (that Christ sends them into the eternal fire then and there)

But here are some other things you could consider:

First, the parable begins:
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory..."

So the parable begins at his coming in glory. Unless you think that He comes twice (I do not think that you do), this is referring to when He comes and establishes His Kingdom. (and in the parable He is inviting some INTO His Kingdom). But no one is thrown into the lake of fire at this time. That does not occur until after the thousand years, after Armageddon, and also at the second resurrection.

So at the battle of Armageddon, after the thousand years... fire comes down from heaven devours 'them'. Part of "them"... are those from the nations outside the Kingdom who have been deceived; who, after the thousand years... are gathered together for battle against those IN the Kingdom.

So the question my Lord would have me ask is this: Who is outside the Kingdom to be deceived and come against the Kingdom at the end of the thousand years, if when Christ came, he brought the sheep from the nations inside, and sent all the rest (the goats) to the 'eternal fire'?



Peace to you,
your servant and sister and a slave of Christ,
tammy

This is speaking of the timing, of how the world was not expecting him, and was just going ahead and 'eating, drinking, marrying, etc, etc'... and then it was upon them. As you can read from the above, He also uses the flood as an example, saying 'just as it occurred'... but we know not to expect a flood.

People will be eating, drinking, buying, selling, marrying, planting, building... just going about their lives NOT believing, NOT expecting... and it will be the same as that on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.


Hope that helps too!

Peace,
your sister and servant and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

No one IN the Kingdom is judged at the second resurrection. They are already IN the Kingdom. Christ already invited them in, on the basis of what they have done to his brothers. So they have already been 'judged' (so to speak) at the separation of the sheep and the goats. (although again... their OWN words and deeds speak for them)

If you recall, as my Lord is reminding ME: at the second resurrection... these are the ones who are given up and called to stand before the white throne and Him seated on it:

"And I saw the DEAD - great and small - standing before the throne..."
"The sea gave up the dead that were in it..."
"... and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them..."

There is no mention of anyone from within the Kingdom standing before the throne to be judged.


As to the rest of what you asked, I need to ask, and will share if/when I can... although you can ask too! Better to hear and learn from Him. He is the One who knows and He does not make mistakes. What He speaks is Truth.



So as with anything that I shared above (in all the posts) that I have learned from my Lord... please do not take my word for it, but ask for yourself, so that you can know the truth FROM the Truth. He is the one who knows. (I know that you know this already, Leaving, but for ANYONE reading...)

Peace to you,
your servant, sister and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Peace to you Armand!

I have read what you wrote a couple of times, and I just had one quick question for you concerning one part.


You wrote:



Did you mean it the way you wrote it above? Or perhaps I am misreading/misunderstanding something?

Doesn't the resurrection and judgment come, and then Death and Hades are destroyed?

"... and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. THEN death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."



Thank you!

Peace to you,
your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

I don't know the answer to this. The WT answer would be 'anyone who is not part of the 144,000 who lived through the GT plus anyone who was resurrected during the thousand years would have the potential to be misled by Satan during the final test.'

Timing (as I read it):
Immediately following GT, Christ arrives and gathers his chosen ones (Matt 24:29-31) (Of course, WT teaches that Armageddon is immediately after the GT, or is the 'final phase' of the GT)
First resurrection (before 1000 years begins) (vs 4-6)
At end of 1000 years, Satan released (vs 7)
Gathers lots of people for the war (vs 8 )
The people are consumed by fire from heaven (vs 9)
Satan cast into lake of fire (vs 10)
The dead judged (vs 12,13... second resurrection)
Death, Hades, and anyone else not found in the book of life cast into lake of fire (vs 14,15)

Now, about "Armageddon".
Rev 16:13-16: "And I saw three unclean inspired expressions that looked like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and they perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.  “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.” And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon."

The thing is that here, the wild beast and false prophet have a part in "gathering" people for the war. However in Rev 20:10, we see the Devil being thrown into the lake of fire "where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were". These seem two be two different time periods being spoken of here. In addition, the interjection of "I am coming as a thief" tends to indicate the timing of when the war in Rev 16 would occur. It's actually an odd interjection. I'm curious as to why it's there.

Afternoon, Tammy:

You are correct. I am typing here at work VERY fast and mistyped. Second Resurrection occurs and then Death and Hades are thrown into Lake.

Thank you for the correction.

Peace.

--Armand

I had ALL those same questions, Leaving, lol.

Then I heard and listened, and shared on this thread about those very things (unless you would rather wait and ask to hear for yourself, by all means do that instead!). Because it is really awesome how our Lord can teach us to look at things DIFFERENTLY than how we have been trained to look at them. We become so trained, that we are sleeping and going by rote what we have been taught to see and how we have been taught to read/think. Until He wakes us UP, and shows us a NEW way; HIS way. The TRUE way. In any case, I was allowed to share some things so here is the link:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1261


May those who hear, hear as the Spirit and the bride say to you, "Come!" To all who are seeking and thirsting, "Come and take the free gift of the water of life!" (which water is holy spirit that comes from the Father, and through the Son)


Peace to you... peace as our Lord Jaheshua, the Holy One of Israel and the Holy Spirit, gives peace,
Your servant and sister, and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Thank you Armand! Just making sure : )


Peace and love to you and to yours,
Your sister and servant, and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

Oh, yeah... I remember this now. (Thick-headed sometimes). Gotta go back and reread that one.


I think sometimes I'm too impatient. LOL!

Thanks for indulging me.

OMGosh... I am SO proud... in the way a big sister would be of her younger siblings (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear, dear tec, dear Armand, and dear LQ!!). I am sure you all can imagne but I'm not sure there are words to describe how much JOY this interchange has given me!! I cannot add to ANYTHING dear tec and Armand have shared, but perhaps I can help where they are still uncertain and further complete the "picture" they're painting for you, dear LQ.

Revelation 20:7-8 is a "birds-eye" view of Revelation 16:13, 14, 16. It is about what the Adversary uses TO mislead Gog and Magog: UNCLEAN inspired expressions, which come forth him, THROUGH the wild beast and false prophet.

The statement that the Adversary is thrown into the Lake (of Fire) where the wild beast and false prophet "already were" is misleading. They were "already" there simply because they were thrown in FIRST, just shortly before HIM:

"I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that YOU may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”

"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur. But the rest were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth. And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them."

Those who are killed by the "sword" are not literally killed by a metal weapon thing. We can KNOW that because our dear Lord said that he who lives BY the sword will DIE by the sword. To have said this but then turn around and kill with a sword himself would make him a hypocrite... or liar. He is neither, though.

So what is the "sword" that "kills" these? It is the TRUTH: the 2-edged "sword" of truth that EXPOSES these... and their "hidden" uncleanness. Once exposed, it is the HEARTS of these that show they truly ARE Gog... and so deserving of what comes upon them: fire from JAH. HIS dynamic energy. Revelation 20:9

Christ, however, has NO ONE's blood on his hands. HIS warfare is fought SPIRITUALLY, not fleshly. From a fleshly position... vengeance belongs to JAH... and only HE takes it.

I hope this helps!

Again, peace to you ALL!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar, who ask you to forgive the poor editing as I'm using my phone - LOLOL