xjwsforChrist

If your lord had an understanding of the grammar of Christian and Hebrew Scripture he wouldn't be teaching a literal Eden. Your lord doesn't correct me from a scientific perspective, but from a doctrinal perspective. That's how I know you are being lied to or that simply your lord is in your imagination. I am just a man and I have a superior understanding of Scripture than your lord. That doesn't elevate me as much as it discredits your lord as he can't even best a human. The truth about Genesis is that it was NEVER meant to be taken literal. It was NOT a historical event. Anyone who teaches this is propagating venomous lies against Scripture.

Interestingly, however, is that the human race DID come from a single couple, but it was through the vastly long process of evolution. Humans are primates.

-Sab

Well then Sab....
we will agree to disagree on this. My faith is still to follow this same voice. I am confident that the same way he knew my heart inside the WTBS enough to "open my eyes to TRUTH" ....and lead me out of that FALSE harlot....that if my heart desires to still follow TRUTH....I trust I will not be misled.

Love as always Sab
Justmom

You want me to list all of the gifts of the Spirit, Shel? My pleasure.. Though I was certainly sure you would be very well accustomed to the form of words I was using. I am sure it isn't only English in usage. Please forgive my occasionally somewhat academic writing style; it's merely the result of lifelong force of habit, and perhaps you might like to make allowances for different national and cultural backgrounds? You know, as Churchill said, " two nations divided by a single language"?

Anyway, gifts of the Spirit, bearing in mind the variety of translations that we use between us: wisdom, understanding, right judgement, courage, knowledge, reverence and fear of The Lord. There you are. I hope that helps. Oh, and you asked me to state their source. God, of course!

You say you don't think one can drink a Person. I agree, in human terms. Yet, thinking about it, even merely human understanding tells us that each of us is unique. Just as not even identical twins have identical fingerprints, each of us has DNA which in its essence and totality is unique, while still bearing all the markers of our genetic inheritance. So, what is difficult to understand in the concept of Christ feeding us in the form of His Body in the outward form of bread (eatable) and His Blood in the outward form of wine, (drinkable)? Our human senses may not outwardly perceive that at the moment of consecration a change in substance has taken place, but our faith and spirit instantly perceives the Divine Presence.

I can understand that many, used to Protestant or even Watchtower thinking, find that difficult to comprehend. I'll do my best to try to elucidate as much as possible. Again, I must ask for your forgiveness and indulgence towards my own deficiencies in understanding of the exact nature of those difficulties. Yet to me it is clear that all three Persons in the Trinity that is one God are distinct individuals in one Substance that is God, Who always was and always will be and always is, now and for ever and ever, perhaps beyond our rational thought and yet readily perceivable and recognisable by that level of ourselves that is beyond mere reason and thinking.

Maybe one way of understanding it might be in this illustration. Think back to before you could swim, or ride a two-wheeler bike. They might have seemed like unattainable accomplishments that you could never possibly achieve. And yet, once each of us has achieved either skill...and they're not really skills, are they... we can never go back (barring brain injury) to being unable to do either.

Or like seeing those holographic pictures that were so popular a few years ago. To begin with, the image was invisible. But once we relaxed and stopped trying to focus consciously, the whole picture swam into view.

Possibly, those illustrations, a form of explanation that some here said might be helpful, might assist some to understand. I hope they might help you. And after all, this is, as you yourself have reminded us on other occasions, a discussion forum, and thus for everyone; it isn't an arena for private messages, is it? What is written here is for one and all. There is a separate area where each may invite an exclusive few, for those who may feel vulnerable, but as you have made clear, this is a forum for everyone and all are welcome.

All of us are obviously here because this openness and lack of secrecy, this availability of thought and this acceptance of questions and willingness to answer, was what drew us in the first place. Was that not Christ's principle? Just as He came to save us all, did He not bring the Good News for all, for each and every one of us? Are we not to share our insights?

And among our different yet sincere understandings, born partly of our different life experiences and backgrounds, might not increased understanding emerge?

It seems a great idea to me, and it is born of your own generosity, Shelby, for which we are surely all grateful, each and every one of us.

I accept and receive the spirit of sincerity behind your words, dear Char (peace to you!). I only wish to ask, with regard to this:



What I meant was how do YOU know those are the gifts of the Spirit - who TOLD you so... and how? Also, you don't seem think those listed by Paul are gifts of the Spirit. If not, may I ask why not? Do you believe that those who (legitimately) spoke/speak in tongues did so by some other means than holy spirit? How about prophesy? What about miracles, such as perhaps some of those you call "saints" are renowned and canonized for? Do you believe that such people performed whatever miracle they did in and of their own self... or by God's spirit? If you believe by God's spirit, why didn't you list such (as did Paul: "powerful works, tongues, prophesying, interpretating tongues, miracles," etc.)?

The thing is, dear one, while what you share may have long roots, dating back CLOSE to two millenia, there is nothing that supports it until AFTER the death of the last Apostle. AFTER the "restraint" that kept folks adhering to what CHRIST said and taught (even if they had to correct one another, while they did as to Paul and he as to them, etc.). From that time on, however, the great apostasy that was foretold set it. Christ SAID it would.

But for some reason, you seem reluctant to accept that truth, accept that even YOU, as one of his chosen ones... MIGHT have been misled, TOO. As some of us others were. Although you CLAIM to belong to hiim... and although he SAID it would occur.

What, though, will you do finally hear him (as all will, and see him, as well)? Who will you blame? Those who are misleading you? But are we not each going to have to provide an accounting for OURSELVES? True, such ones will have a greater accounting, but that will not negate our individual one. What, then, will YOU say? "I THOUGHT they were your servants, Lord! Why did you LET me listen to them!"? Yet, you acknowledge that we all have a CHOICE as to who to follow.

We're all praying for you, dear Char... our sister... that you do wake up... and ALLOW yourself to listen. But until you "grow up" in your FAITH, so as to become a FULL-grown "man," and one who can handle MEAT, not just milk... you will be led by the hired men/pedagogues. Because that is what you CHOOSE. Yes, we are supposed to become like young/small children, but with regard to CHRIST; before HIM.

The time for us to be taught... so as to be led by others, however... who cannot even save THEMSELVES... is quickly passing away. And all I've ever said to you... and anyone... is to turn your gaze to the Master, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit... God's CHOSEN Shepherd... JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah).

That's the ONLY thing I would EVER say anyone might want to listen to ME about. That he LIVES... is ALIVE... AND SPEAKS. Each one, though, must choose for themselves: whether they TRULY believe in that resurrection, TRULY believes he IS alive.

Dead men, though, don't speak. It is the living who have voices.

As always, the greatest of love and peace to you, dear sister... and may YOU be granted ears to hear, when the Spirit (Christ) and his Bride say to YOU:

"Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, which is His blood, breath, and seed... the receipt of which makes the one SO receiving... His SON (in THREE ways!)... and is poured out from the innermost parts of His only-begotten Son, the HOLY ONE of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

There is no cost, dear one. It only takes faith... to the preserving ALIVE... of the SPIRIT!

YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

Shellama

If your lord had an understanding of the grammar of Christian and Hebrew Scripture he wouldn't be teaching a literal Eden. Your lord doesn't correct me from a scientific perspective, but from a doctrinal perspective. That's how I know you are being lied to or that simply your lord is in your imagination. I am just a man and I have a superior understanding of Scripture than your lord. That doesn't elevate me as much as it discredits your lord as he can't even best a human. The truth about Genesis is that it was NEVER meant to be taken literal. It was NOT a historical event. Anyone who teaches this is propagating venomous lies against Scripture.

Interestingly, however, is that the human race DID come from a single couple, but it was through the vastly long process of evolution. Humans are primates.

-Sab

Hello Sab

As one who puts faith in what I hear from my Lord. I am moved to speak. Your belief seems to be based on what you can physically see and science. You speak of things that come and go, live and die. Dear Mom and a few others here who rely on faith and what we hear know sometimes it takes science years to prove what even man himself may think to be true. Man is continually learning and understanding and with that increased knowledge comes change of thought. You feel that you have a superior understanding of scripture than my Lord. Yet, your understanding will continually change as mans knowledge changes. With our lord, the things we are taught are true and lasting. I do not expect you to change your thoughts on the matter. However, I wanted to make clear. To those of us with faith that have tasted the free gift and seen spiritually what only our Lord Jaheshua and his father Jah can show us, in no way do we see your intelligence as superior to our Lords.
Among men you may be considered intelligent. When compared to our Lord you sometimes appear foolish.

As long as you follow science; you follow man. If learned science is your source of information, then man is your source of knowledge. There is a great deal of truth out there that man has not yet discovered, making their intelligence very limited. I do not put my faith in man, the created or the evolved. I put my faith in my heavenly father Jah and the one whom he sent forth Jaheshua.

Psalms 119:15,16 "With your orders I will concern myself, and I will look to your paths. For your statutes I shall show a fondness, I shall not forget your word."

I will continue to concern myself with the orders of my father Jah.

Sincerely Finalcall

With all due respect your lord cannot identify allegory when it's put right in front of his face. You say that your lord knows undiscovered science, but you have no facts to base that on. What I know of your Your lord is that he uses an archaic understanding of Scripture that was designed to enslave rather than enlighten. You are in mental slavery at the moment and I seek to liberate not only you, but as many people as I can before I leave this world. It is my passion, it is my purpose. You are right, I am a simple man and that simple man has proven your lord false time and time again. It is you who refuse to acknowledge that observable reality. As the Chinese proverb goes:

"Before a brilliant person begins something great, they must look foolish to the crowd."

-Sab

Well, this certainly isn't true. That all don't have the details as to such facts doesn't mean there are no facts. Just that all don't have the details as to them. Some do, though.

A slave of Christ,

Shellama, who must be really brilliant, 'cause she apparently looks foolish to a couple a few crowds...

Shelby, forgive this brief post. My circumstances just now don't permit a long one.

I am, naturally, grateful for the prayers of all the prayers of all who are sincerely praying for me, whatever the specifics of their intentions. Likewise, you may like to know that I too have, for some long time now, been praying for you and all here.

However, one thing must be made clear. It's time you all stopped this pretence that I neither listen nor hear. We've already said that while you listen to and hear an actual voice ( a practice I personally consider psychologically hazardous and unwise,) I do and have ALL MY LIFE, my whole life long, from probably an age of about two and a half and certainly three, and my thinking conscious memory goes back further...I was a child verbal very early...talked WITH, not TO, my Lord and Friend, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I recounted this in my very early days here.

I can't write much more. You call it hearing and listening. I call it praying. You hear an actual voice. I perceive Him, Jesus Christ, and the One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in totality and more, so very much more fully than with mere hearing, in ways beyond description, and ALSO very particularly Jesus Christ, because of course He is the point where God and Man meet. That's why God became Man in Christ, to sacrifice Himself for us and to show us God as Man.

Words are not enough and I am unable to say more right now. So, please just stop it. Go back and read all the times we've discussed fine differences between concepts, sometimes in a manner edifying to neither me nor you, Shelby, and see the few occasions when I've tried to explain myself, and been shot down or disparaged. And I freely admit that I too have done the same.

I, for my part, am very sorry for it.

I came here because I recognised like minds who thought differently. I still think that all of us here, every single one, are of like minds. We all love Christ. We are all, in our various ways, always on touch with him. I don't hold all your detailed beliefs and you don't mine. I am NEVER going to allow myself again to move one hair's breadth from what I hold most dear, Christ in His fullness. On the path He called me to. That He may have called each of you in different ways is only natural, we are all unique, you and me and Pup and Sab and each person here and in the whole world. Not all respond to Him. Those of us who are here are each and all trying to.

Isn't that enough?

It's a lot more than I thought I could write.

This is dangerous...

_________________
To fear me is to love me....

I disagree Pup, I think it's very loving and honest.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

It's was neither loving nor honest. It was venomous judgmental drivel dressed up in a red bow.

-Sab

Sabastious, if you can say that about this statement... then you have to acknowledge that this is a description of what YOU are doing here. Are you ready to acknowledge something like that about yourself?



Then why, Sab, did YOU not know that Christ is written to have said that ALL the law and prophets hang off the first two commandments. You said the opposite, yes? So how can you say that you have a more superior understanding than the Lord who told us the truth on the matter?

Peace,
tammy

There are people in this world who would say the above quote in a condescending or judgmental manner, and who even hope that the person they are speaking to does NOT come to God. (this is not the case here)

Just as there are people who would say so out of love for their Lord and for His sheep, including the person they are speaking TO. Not to judge. Not to condescend. But so the person hears the truth, not watered down but still given in love, and they can then choose what they do with that.

It is hard to speak the truth sometimes. There are times when I have not spoken, because I know what is going to follow... but love (for Christ and His sheep) would have one SPEAK just as one hears from the Spirit of Truth, rather than be silent to save themselves the outcry and anger.

There will be people who twist and abuse that as well. But we can only do what WE are supposed to do. We cannot control what others do, or how they react.

Peace,
tammy

What is your own reasoning, Tammy, behind your statement "if you can say that about this statement...then you have to acknowledge that this is a description of what YOU are doing here."

Er...no! That doesn't follow at all! A non sequitur if ever I saw one! And why should Sab "have to acknowledge something like that about "himself"? Where's the logic behind that?

And to your second point, Tammy, Sab didn't say he had a superior understanding of Scripture than THE Lord. He said "than YOUR Lord" (my capitals).

You might care to ask yourself why anyone on this board might see a difference between the Lord and your Lord.

Because Sab is here telling us how wrong we are, how wrong our Lord IS, how we are following heresy, or sorcerers, how we must turn from our wickedness and that there is still time... and that he is doing all of this because he cares.

So... if it is called venomous drizzle in a red bow for Shelby to speak as she did to you; then how is what Sab is doing to everyone else not also called venomous drizzle? Even you have said the same, that you pray for us, and for what you think we are doing wrong. Is it called venomous drizzle when you do it?

So that is my reasoning.



To recognize that he is doing what he is judging another person for doing.



Okay, but so? We are speaking of MY Lord, and the comment was directed to MY Lord, and so my comment was about MY Lord as well.

In any case, his understanding of scripture was wrong... whereas my Lord has taught me true.



That is not really a hard question to answer: Because their understanding of THE Lord is different. Depending upon what or who they are looking at to see Him.

Doesn't bother me either way. I know who it is that I follow, and HE has NEVER led ME wrong. (caps for emphasis, not anger, lol)

Peace,
tammy