xjwsforChrist

What do they gain?

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To fear me is to love me....

It is not for us to judge any believer, that is up to Christ.
We are not qualified.
We can judge their actions, yes, but not their faith.

Here is the thing and I am of course stating simply my opinion on the matter:
IF salvation was based upon what WE DO, then it is NOT based upon what CHRIST DID.
IMO, it IS based on what Christ did.

Nothing we can do gives us salvation, it is a gift from God through Christ.

Can we earn this gift? NO.
Can we reject it? Yes.

Having a different opinion on Christ or the HS or Our Father is NOT a rejection of them.

Here is the cold hard fact:
The only what YOU will even KNOW for 100% SURE is the day you die.
Beyond that, this is why faith is so crucial and so vital.

I can honestly say that my faith in Christ is there and I can say with all honesty that some days it is more than others and that some days I have a very hard time with my faith.

What I can 100% guarantee you is this:
IF Christ is who we think He is and that is:
Son of God, God by nature, who emptied himself and became human for Us and died to reconcile all of us to Him, IF He is just that then there is NO OTHER way to salvation. There is no other way to view God but as Love.
The Father and Son cared so much that the son became flesh WITH US, He went through everything we do and He suffered and died (bodily) as we do but in the most painful and horrific way possible.
That kind of love, IF it is true, is the ONLY way ANY of Us are saved.

Ask any who have and do, oppose Christ.
What do they gain?
What does Lucifier and those that followed/follow him gain?

Power.

I suspect also rather a lot of money.

From PSac's post and I do agree, then I do not really see why there is this froth between those who adopt the concept of Trinity and those who do not.

Between those who hear a voice and those who do not.

Are these minor squabbles or is there a great importance placed upon which is correct and which is incorrect?

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To fear me is to love me....

Power and money are only enjoyed while alive. If the Watchtower Society is knowingly turning their back upon the HS then what is their ultimate goal? A pact with the "Devil"?

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To fear me is to love me....

Hello JustMom, yes, you are very confused. This may help:

The serpent in Genesis is called a "wild animal" in Genesis 3 and the most cunning of them. Let's say you are reading a book that is not Genesis and you come to the 3rd page. On that page is a description of an animal communicating with humans through the use of audible speech. What, then, would you be forced to conclude about the book? You would have to accept the idea that in this book animals can speak to humans. Now, in Genesis the same rules apply. The moment we are introduced to the serpent character the reader is compelled to start imagining the back story. At the beginning of the book the back story is not as clear and as consequential elements are introduced it gradually reveals itself. The speech of the serpent in Genesis 3 IS one of these consequential elements of the story being told.

The obvious result from a grammatical reading of the text compels the reader to "step into another world" or "the world of Eden" with the writer(s). Because the serpent can talk, and is cunning, this would imply that "Eden" is a world where serpents can talk. That's WHY it was a serpent and not a mouse, because the mice wouldn't be able to pull off what the serpent did. It wasn't smart enough and much too cuddly and squeaky.

My point is that your confusion comes from the way you are approaching the text of the Torah. This is because you have a bad teacher. I hope you know that it pains me to say that, but it's true. He doesn't have your best interests at heart because he tells you that you are not worthy of life. You deserve the favor God has given you. Without that acceptance to that simple and beautiful truth you are kept from the rest of truth itself.

You, and the people who believe the same as you, are the one's the preaching work was designed for. God wants every soul saved and one of the biggest obstacles to that is people who don't feel deserving of salvation. They are the weaker ones who the adversary preys upon. People who cannot forgive themselves miss the first step to salvation. Love of self. Even GOD forgave himself when he felt regret after executing all life on earth. That's because he loved himself and knew he was doing the right thing even though excruciatingly painful.

The Man in Black in the movie "The Princess Bride" gave a timeless quote: "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something."

-Sab

The Dread Pirate Roberts(Wesley)!!!

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To fear me is to love me....

In reality they gain a bitter defeat, but it will be at a surprise to them. In their lofty minds they have already won and gain total power over everything and everyone.

-Sab

Sab, read John 14: 15-17, and compare it to John 14: 18-21

Christ says the SAME things about the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth... that He says about Himself... in those same verses.

I did a comparison elsewhere; I'll try and find it and link it for you.



Then why did Christ teach Paul? Why did CHRIST come, and not this other person? Christ even identifies Himself to Paul, clearly.




Read the verses in John. Christ speaks of the Holy Spirit coming to them; and then immediately switches to speak of Himself coming to them.



No I am not.

There is the breath of God... holy spirit; likened to the grain (spirit) that Joseph (Christ) gave out to the people who came to him for grain (spirit/life), that belonged to Pharaoh (God)

It is an analogy to help us to see the relation.

The spirit (holy spirit) comes FROM God, THROUGH Christ, TO those Christ chooses to give it to.

Paul also makes this distinction:

But for us there is but one GOD, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


Then there is also THE Holy Spirit, who is Christ. A person.



See above.

THE Holy Spirit - Christ

holy spirit - breath of god, the life that sustains us, that comes from God through Christ.



Yes, they are one. No one is arguing that. Just as we may be one with them.



Really? The spirit you listen to that missed that all the law and prophets hang on the first two commandments, and taught you the opposite instead?

Why should I listen to you OR the one who teaches you if he teaches you wrong... when my Lord is the One who taught me what is true?



Sab, I'm just going to let the response given to you in my last post stand, rather than go in circles. You did not do the whole line for line thing I noticed, and I think that is because you would have had to acknowledge that this spirit you listen to... or your logic and reason... whichever one, teaches you wrong.




You are the one who has done the labeling here, Sab.

You have said that I follow a wrong voice, a tainted voice, a false christ, etc.

Just keeping that in perspective before someone tries to twist it around.


Oh, and i think it got lost somewhere, but i did ask if you could link to the article that your post is actually supposed to be about, because that would be interesting. I just like to see what it is I am supposed to be commenting on, rather than take someone else's interpretation of that article (such as the person you linked to in your OP), and speak on their interpretation instead. Do you have a link to that Sab?

Peace,
tammy

Tammy, there is no conflict. None at all.

First of all, unlike Jesus, who alluded to it, you have forgotten Deuteronomy 6:16

"Do not test The Lord your God as you tested him at Massah."

Then there's the passage you quoted, 1John 4:1

John does indeed exhort Christ's followers to test the spirits to see if they come from God, and goes on to point out the true test of the spirits, in which a true spirit from God would acknowledge that Jesus Christ is from God. Firstly, John refers to spirits in the plural. Not a spirit. Not the spirit. Spirits. Secondly, he makes no reference here to the Holy Spirit, nor to a spirit being Christ.

So, would a spirit that is Christ need to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is from God? And could a spirit saying that Christ's name is not actually Jesus at all be from God?

But there's much more. Even if John HAD been talking of the Holy Spirit, which quite clearly he was not, he, after all, is John. He is not Jesus Christ.

What does Christ himself say? You've ignored his words on the subject.

Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said to him "Scripture also says, Do not put The Lord your God to the test."

Luke 4:12 "Jesus said "Do not put The Lord your God to the test."

Seems pretty clear to me. How does it seem to you?

Then Luke 12:11, which you even quote, says of the times the disciples would be brought before the synagogue that they shouldn't worry over what to say as the Holy Spirit would tell them what to say. Well! That's pretty clear, isn't it? Nothing about Jesus Christ telling them! The Holy Spirit would tell them!

Not Christ. Not an angel. The Holy Spirit.

You say "Christ is personal." Christ is much more than personal. A letter is personal. Christ is a Person. And the Holy Spirit is another person. As is God Our Father in Heaven. All are God. One God in Three Persons.

If you choose to reject this fact, it is your choice, but before you do, just think about whom you are rejecting, and why?



Being "personal" with someone sounds kind of friendly. Couple of problems with it, though.
1. That's one of the arguments the Jehovah's Witnesses use to have people call God Jehovah. Not all that convincing.
2. God expects of us reverence.

And finally, Sab is objectifying the Holy Spirit? Scarcely. It isn't Sab who is calling Him "it".

Tec, the reason why I am not responding line for line is that at this point I am just trying to untie the knots you throw at me. It is abundantly clear to me that you are completely in the dark as to what you claim to have special knowledge of. This realization changes the way I respond.

You are now holding my words accountable to the revelation of Paul, which we both know could have been the product of epilepsy. Although when I read his words it's obvious to me that he was instructed by the same Entity that is instructing me. The way this Entity instructs is by LITERALLY directing you to LITERAL places. Like a Shepard would using His staff. This is because humans need perspective in order to understand. Without certain types of experiences we tend to take the same wrong turns over and over. But with a a little direction, you know, like WIND IN SAILS, there's no limit to what a single human can accomplish.

Your explanation of "holy spirit" vs "The Holy Spirit" is abominable. A teacher teaches principles which the student can then use to teach themselves what the teacher could never have with mere speech and busywork. God isn't a servant that answers every little query we have with an audible reply in our native tounge. Yes, when we ask we WILL receive an answer, but that answer is always a principle that leads to true knowledge. God doesn't help you re-translate Scripture, that's what he designed scholars and scribes for. Those systems of accountability were not made in vain.

The Spirit of Elohim is NOT the Son of God, he/she is the Spirit of Elohim the third Element of the Holy Trinity and the Breath of Jehovah.

-Sab

Which was absolutely and totally self-imposed, dear Char (peace to you!), yes? Let's be CLEAR, then... and not be trying to mislead folks, even subtlely. Because that would be not only deceitful... but hypocritical. And we aren't like either, are we?

Peace!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellama, who marvels that a (very) brief absence in the wake of disagreement is even referred to as an "exile", whether self-imposed or not...

Well, of course it was self-imposed, no-one ever said it wasn't! For goodness' sake, Shelby, let's not go all paranoid!

Sab said: So, now you call me a liar? I know the reason I am here and it's to help the one's who have been misled by Shelby. You are her prime target and therefore you are the main reason I am here. Shelby is lost, you are following a spiritually blind person as I once did.



I feel that I must comment on the above. It is not only an inaccurate assumption but it undermines the faith of many here.

What seems to elude some is the fact that some of us have 'tasted the heavenly free gift' and
have 'received the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee' so as to KNOW who is leading us. Christ has been leading me directly this way for 21 years now. I recognise and trust Him, and while I might care for and love other members of His body, they don't and can't lead me. Because of the Spirit within me joining me to Him, I follow Him, no one else.

Christ is the Word, the Truth, the Life and the Holy Spirit, and is also the one who led me away from religion and to not only Shelby, but to Tec, to JustMom, and others here, together with other members of His body in other parts of the world. This scripture was recalled to my mind after reading this thread and seeing the confusion within it, in John 4:

10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.


Go to Christ and ask Him yourself, anyone reading the thread, is the most loving advice I can offer. It's where we place our faith, it's whose voice we heed. No one else's.

Loz x

Edited due to illegible colour!

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"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"