xjwsforChrist

Hebrews 11 is all about faith.
The "works" spoken of happened because of faith.
Enoch was taken to heaven because of his faith ( no mention of any "work" done by him).
What work did Sarah do to "deserve" God's blessing and give birth way beyond her years? ( except maybe sleep with Abe, LOL), it was faith in God's promose.

What works did the centurion due to have his child cured? or the Jairus to have his daughter brought back to life?

We must be cautious in what we preach, for our Gospel is not a gospel of works, of what WE CAN DO, but a Gospel about what CHRIST DID for us.

No one is arguing the value of good works, far form that.
I am simply stating that they (good works with good intent) come from the HS and not from Us.
We do not do good to have God, we have God and then we do good.

Yes Paul I see the importance of faith.. True faith
My point I was trying to share is the one you had mentioned about believers and that just believing even if it's sincere
" having a zeal for god but not according to accurate knowledge"
does not make one automatically anointed or chosen.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Love your sister in Christ Kim

Yes, that was the point, luv (peace!). These had WORKS because of their faith.



I'm not sure that's completely accurate, luv:

"For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."


What did he DO... to "please" God? If nothing else, we know that he prophesied [against the wicked of his day]. Which required knowledge of a future time. Prophesying is DOING (something). Where, though, would he have gotten what he prophesied ABOUT... and on what basis would he have DONE something with it... shared it? It would have to be his FAITH... in the TRUTH of it, as well as in Whoever it was that shared such WITH him. Now, whether what is recorded in the "Book of Enoch" is that information is another matter. But the issue is, regardless of WHAT is was that he shared/prophesied about, he SHARED/PROPHESIED about it. He didn't just receive it and say, "Yeah, I BELIEVE that." He believed it ENOUGH... to pass it on.

What work did Sarah do to "deserve" God's blessing and give birth way beyond her years? ( except maybe sleep with Abe, LOL), it was faith in God's promose.

But she DID sleep with Abe... although BARREN for close to 90 years. She slept with him because, after she laughed and as reproved, she put FAITH in what she heard. THEN she demonstrated her faith by standing UP to Abe and not backing down on her instruction to him to send Hagar away when Ishmael persecuted Isaac. Why did she do that? Because she had FAITH that Isaac WAS the true heir and seed of Abraham who would be blessed by having THE Seed, Christ, come through HIS line (vs. Ishmael, the FIRST son). If she didn't have FAITH in either of things, she wouldn't have bothered as to either. She certainly wouldn't haven't challenged Abe to choose between his sons.

LONG before EITHER of these things, though... she picked up her LIFE... and went WITH Abe... to go wander about and live in tents... for DECADES... in a land she didn't know... FAR from HER family... when HE was told by JAH to get up and do so... because she had FAITH that JAH was going to do for and give to Abe ALL that He had said He WOULD. She didn't say, "You want me to do WHAT, Abe? Leave MY mother and father... and go ride about on camels and eat food with dust in it... because some GOD said to do so?!"



Smile. They both did the same thing, luv: they went IN SEARCH of the One who could help them... then literally ASKED him to help. They didn't just say, "Oh, I BELIEVE he can cure my man/daughter!" No, they got off their duffs! Just like the woman with the flow of blood: she came out of her house, went LOOKING for him... then reached HER hand out and touched him! Rather than expecting HIM to come to HER. They all did what they DID... BECAUSE they had faith... an ASSURED EXPECTATION... in the THING... healing... for themselves or a loved one... HOPED for.



What he did... and still DOES, luv. Many only focus on what he did... TO THE EXCLUSION of what he is STILL DOING now: SPEAKING... and through that, guiding, directing, leading, and subduing. Those who LISTEN to him and DO what he SAYS. And if he WASN'T doing that... then there really is not reason FOR faith in his resurrection. Because it's only DEAD men who do nothing. Yet, Christ IS ALIVE. Risen FROM the dead... and ruling. Even in the MIDST of his enemies.



I hear you.



Yes! Yet, if we RESIST that spirit... which we CAN DO... by NOT DOING (what we are directed BY Christ/holy spirit... TO DO)... then we not only GRIEVE that spirit... but might even shut up the kingdom. Before ourselves AND others. And so, YOUR argument on another thread: we CAN resist. NOT just against the Adversary, but ALSO against JAH and Christ. And we can KNOW that because that is the very MEANING of the title GIVEN to the Adversary: the "Resister". Yes?



Ah, dear one, you forget: whenever the people of the nations do, BY NATURE, the things of the Law, they ARE a law, WITHIN THEMSELVES. So, some of mankind can and DO do good. That good, however, is LIMITED. It is not PERFECT. We, of the Body of Christ, NEED Christ... to help us toward PERFECT good. We will never make it in the flesh, and so he makes up our deficit. But we CAN do (some) good. We just learn to do MORE... when we come into union with HIM. Because HE "subdues" us and teaches us peace.

But there are many who do not know God, who do not have holy spirit... who even blaspheme against our dear Lord... who do go as to their fellow man. Which is why such ones are caught OFF guard when our dear Lord says, "Come! Inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you! Because the extent you DID it to the least of these my brothers you did it to me!" so that they respond, "WHEN did we... Lord?"

Again, as dear James wrote:

[b]"Show me your faith apart from you works... and I'll show you MY faith... BY my works."
[\b]

Starting with sharing what I receive from my Lord with you dear ones... when he tells me to. Rather than keeping it to myself. That requires "doing" something, luv, which something I COULD choose NOT to do. The rocks would cry out, instead, yes, so that the information would get out there, but so long as it lies with ME, that won't need to happen. Not here, at least.

I hope that helps, dear P, truly. Again, I hear what you're saying.

Peace to you!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shel

And I hear what you are saying too Shel.

One of the things that bothered me the most about the JW's was that they believed they had to preach door-to-door to be worthy of salvation.
Now, I don't think it was plainly stated that doing that EARNED salvation, but it was always put forth, "what are you DOING for Jehovah?"
As if doing something for Him was needed and, of course, that something MUST be preaching the WT and Awake.

And how many times do they use James to justify that?

The funny part is that in James ( and Matthew), it is made clear WHAT "works" are viewed by God as "good" and the strking thing is not ONCE is "preaching door-to-door" mentioned at all

James says to STOP being a "busy-body" and gossiping ( sin of the tongue) and to take care of the widows, and in Matthew, Our Lord mentions:
35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

These are "works" ( and I use the term works very loosely) that are not works at all BUT fruits bore out of love for Our Lord.

Good Morning Paul and Yes....

With the JWs the emphasis was more on WORKS than ANYTHING else. And it still was never enough.
There are many other religions that require a lot of works ( just not as harsh of a yoke) but require " works" in accordance with their belief system.
Works out of FEAR is what man promotes and instills. And what they forget is that no matter how many works/deeds they do....you will NEVER be good enough to earn your salvation. But you know as well as I do many convince themselves that they ARE! ( I might do this/ but I'd NEVER do that/ at least I'm not THIS or THAT...)

But you nailed it in your last statement and it's okay to say works because they are works or deeds or fruitages born out of LOVE for our Lord NOT because of what religion from man requires.
How can we, if we say we TRULY Love CHRIST, BELONG to him as HIS Body not do what HE tells us to do. Which would be " a work". The WTBS and others have traumatized many with this word, because they do not understand the works that are " borne " out of Love for what our Lord has done for us already.
There's is a salvation based work out of love for THEM. And their yoke and chain is a cruel one unlike our Lords. Which is also why to those that belong to him are told this...Isaiah 61!

These are "works" ( and I use the term works very loosely) that are not works at all BUT fruits bore out of love for Our Lord.[/quote]



Thank you for sharing my brother,
Your sister and fellow slave of Christ, Kim.

I've spent plenty of time studying "works", and yes, JWs have it wrong... very, very wrong.

Paul sums it up this way in Galatians 2:15,16:
We who are Jews by birth, and not sinners from the nations, recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.

Unfortunately, this comes from a mistranslation of the pisteuó (Strong's 4100) as "exercise faith". The term "exercise" is emphasized by JWs, but this term does not appear in the Greek text. It is inserted by JWs to support their own theology. If they said, "have faith" or "trust in", that would be a better translation of "exercise faith". They continuously talk about the "exercise" portion of this, which, if JWs would just take two minutes to look up the translation, they would see that it is not in the Greek.

It is important for ALL the remember that no believer needs to "prove" their faith ( by works or words) to anyone.
GOD knows, period.
What anybody else THINKS they know or not is irrelevant.

We are judged only by God and only on our faith in Him.
All we have done or not done will be taken into account based on our intentions of why we did ( or didn't) do them.

Personally I am very happy for Our Lord's grace because outside of that, I would be nothing.

Amazing grace indeed...

Unmerited or Unearned (not a fan of the term undeserving) because we truly do not merit it NOR can we ever earn it.

Peace to you!

The Spirit has shown me something in regard to works... something that I did not understand before, but that makes this confusion perhaps over 'works' more clear, at least to me.

Because we should not mix up works done from faith (in Christ), with works done by the law.

Paul, in that verse above that Leaving shared, is speaking about those who believe that they will be saved by putting faith in and obeying the law; so much so that they start looking to the law over faith in Christ... and that according to the law, they will be declared righteous. But no one is declared righteous by the law; but rather by faith in Christ and God.

The wts puts the emphasis back on works according to the law. The 'image' of the old law that they have resurrected, so the 'laws' themselves may be different, but they are still law... and not faith. Then they promote a works (by the law) salvation, rather than a faith salvation. Which faith also requires WORKS... or that faith is dead, as James explained also. But it is not works according to the laws, but rather works according to faith in Christ, and yes, that is borne, as you have all stated, out of love for Christ.


"[b]If anyone loves me, he will obey my teachings.[/b] My Father will love him, and we will come and make our home with him." John 14:23


Obeying His teachings is works... but works done in FAITH. Forgiving, loving, showing mercy, speaking, healing, eating the flesh and blood of Christ, obeying ANYTHING, is works from faith.


Peace to you, as Christ give peace,
Your sister and servant and fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

Well put Tammy

YES!!

Thank you for sharing what our Lord showed you. It is simple this way.
Praise and thanks to Jah and His son our Lord Jaheshua Mischajah for this!

Love and Peace to you
Your sister and fellow servant of CHRIST, Kim

Absolutely, dear tec (peace to you, luv!). I was going to comment, to our dear Paul's comment (peace to you, as well, dear, dear brother!):

These are "works" ( and I use the term works very loosely) that are not works at all BUT fruits bore out of love for Our Lord.

I would counter, in line with what dear tec stated, dear one, that they are indeed works... which works are, for US, born OF the FRUIT that is love. That FRUIT, love... PRODUCES such works, at least for those of the Body of Christ. There are those of the nations who do such things BY nature.

Through Christ, the Tree (of Life), the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies, produces "fruit" (love, joy, peace, etc.) in US. So long as we remain "in" Christ, the Tree (of Life)... as "branches"... we produce "fruit." In truth, FRUIT... ALSO produces: it sustains LIFE... for those who eat it.

Our works that RESULT from that fruit produced IN us... are the "peel, pulp, seeds," etc. that MANIFEST the FRUIT that has been PRODUCED (in us).

Without peel, pulp, seeds, etc., there is no way to DISCERN that a tree HAS produced fruit. There is nothing but leaves. "Manna."

As dear LQ (peace to you, too, dear one!)... such works are not works of the LAW (i.e., washing hands, abstaining from pork, being unclean for a number of days due to blood flow/emissions, no piercings/tattoos, not doing work on Sunday, etc.). They are works "befitting repentance." Acts 26:20

Meaning:

"You heard it said you must hate your enemy" (a deviation from the Law, based on the mis-scribed "instruction" to Israel to "devote [their] enemies"... those who had usurped the land given to Abraham... "to destruction")...

"But I say you must LOVE your enemies, and PRAY for them."

In this instance, love... is the FRUIT. However, PRAYING [for those enemies]... is the works. One might reason that they show love to their enemies by not taking issue with them; however, they listen to and OBEY... when they DO what Christ said... and, literally, PRAY... FOR such enemies.

The demonstrate their FAITH... in HIM... by DOING... LITERALLY... what he SAID: praying ... for such enemies.

So, we are not excused from works. It's just that we have DIFFERENT works to do now. Works "befitting repentance." Meaning, works that no long manifest OUR will (which, for example, is holding grudges against, or even hating, our enemies)... but JAH's will, as taught to us by Christ (and so, not just forgiving, but PRAYING for our enemies). A 180 turn from what we USED to do... based on what we USED to think God "required" of us.

I hope this helps... and please overlook the caps. They're just my usual "emphasis"... and I'm working at home today and so posting in between... and so typing really fast (LOLOL!).

Peace to you, ALL... and let's take care not to "throw out the 'baby' with the [WTBTS/religious] 'bathwater'."

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Well, alrighty... seems I'm not "done" sharing on this (peace to you, all!).

Just had a conversation with my dear Lord (well, he talked; I listened)... and he said "works" is a major stumbling block for many. Either folks are thinking of the wrong "works" (aka, those under the Law)... or that no works at all are necessary (because they don't understand what is meant by "works"). This is not directed at anyone in particular, but just what he directed me to share, generally:

Most who profess to be "christians" don't understand the FULLNESS of what he said when he directed:

"You must love your enemies and pray for them."

As with things like washing feet, they stop at the DOING - the "work." They have been taught... and so believe, that so long as they BELIEVE they love their enemy (because they're not holding an outright grudge, or taking some NEGATIVE action)... it is sufficient. What they are missing, though, he said, is the part he said to DO: "PRAY for you enemies."

He reminded me of his words through Samuel:

"To OBEY is better than to sacrifice."

And through David:

"Sacrifice and offering you did not want; but these EARS of mine You OPENED." Psalm 40:6

JAH opened my Lord's ears... so that he could HEAR... so as to OBEY.

He said that if he DIDN'T want us to do the things he said... he would not have SAID them. To do otherwise, to say one thing but mean another, is deceitful... and circumvents his "yes" meaning "yes"... and his "no" meaning "no." If, then, there was some OTHER meaning, if his directives to, say, wash one another's feet... or pray for our enemies... were simply symbolic or parables... he would EXPLAINED that to his disciples. Indeed, they would have asked what he MEANT, if they did not discern that he meant what he SAID.

It is fine, then, for us to love our enemies. Indeed, it is required; however, it comes back to that question:

"What do I need to do TO BE PERFECT"?

In this account, he answered that, in his words:

"You MUST love your enemies AND PRAY for them."

We cannot say we love Christ... if we don't obey him. Don't DO the things he SAID/SAYS. And so here, and in many other instances... we cannot say we love Christ... if we only do PART of what he said. If so, we are not showing ourselves to WHOLE-souled in our love (for him, and thus for the Father). But as he also said:

"He have LOVES me... observes my word/does my word." John 14:23

Noah absolutely had FAITH... in JAH's warning that a flood was coming. He totally believed it. BECAUSE he believed it... he BUILT the ark. Rahab absolutely had faith that JAH would overpower the city and people of Jericho. She totally believed it. Even to the point of risking her life by hiding the spies... and putting the chord outside her window. Abraham absolutely believed JAH was going to give him a great land. He totally believe it. So much so that he took his family and went wandering off into a land he had never even seen before.

And there are the many others. ALL of these, though, DID something... as a MANIFESTATION of their faith. Their faith was LIVING... and so prompted SOME action.

Our dear Lord had faith... in the MOST HOLY One of Israel, JAH of Armies... that That One would NOT leave him in the grave, among the dead of Sheol... but WOULD allow him to return to THIS life, resurrected from the dead. And so, he didn't just say, "I believe you, Father, indeed, I KNOW you can give me the keys to let myself out... and that, as a result I will COME out... but since I know you WILL, there's really no need FOR me to die. So, let's just go with my FAITH."

No... he let himself BE impaled and put to death. He literally handed himself over TO it. DID. BECAUSE of his FAITH.

Those who think that works of the Law are necessary to manifest faith might find themselves among those who said, "Lord, Lord, did we not do such and so in your name?" to whom he will respond, "Get away from me! I never knew YOU!" But they might not be alone. Rather, they might be joined by those who believe there are no works that can be done to manifest our faith. Because these latter are those who say, "Lord, WHEN did we see you... hungry, naked, thirsty... and DIDN'T feed, clothe, give you a drink?"

Remember, his response is:

"To the extent you DID/did not DO it to the least of these... you DID/did not DO it to ME."

I offer this because, apparently, he wishes for you dear ones to understand FULLY. So, I hope this helps, truly!

Peace to you, all!

YSSFS of Christ,

Shellamar

Yes, "works of law" vs. "works of the spirit". That's how I look at it and that's the difference between Paul's statements regarding faith and works and the statement James made ("faith without works is dead"). I like to point out to JWs when the topic comes up that if you read the entire letter that James wrote, you won't find anything about preaching or attending meetings. Not a mention. Then I ask them to think about what "works" he was referring to.

Unfortunately, they still think that preaching is absolutely the most important activity. *sigh*

I generally ask one final question for those that think that way: What did Christ say his followers would be noted for? Preaching? If you can answer that, then you will understand what is or is not the most important thing.

Good point to raise LQ.

Loz x

_________________
"This is my son. LISTEN to Him!"

We preach in action far more than we preach with words.